Mr. JACOBS. From the water's edge to the levee there is sufficient room at the narrowest point to enlarge the present levee on its present location without setting it back at all. The cross-sections of surveys that have been made by the Board of State Engineers of Louisiana, and also some investigation that has been made by Colonel Hodge, the United States district engineer at New Orleans in charge of that district, bear that out.

If Vidalia Point is cut, it will require the abandonment of that town, the setting back of a line of levees there approximately 3 miles on a direct line west of the present levee line. There will probably be injunctions entered by the property owners, unless the area is bought up back of the set-back to provide for a new town. The property owners will require payment for the present property that is thrown out, because the present levee board, known as the "Fifth Louisiana Levee District ", cannot assume the responsibility of acquiring this right-of-way for the Government under section 3 of the present flood-control act. The levee board is broke; they have not been paying other obligations that they owe for lands that it was absolutely necessary to take. The levee board cannot acquire that right-of-way for the Government, and if the Government acquires it, they will spend a huge amount of money in doing so.

And as a representative and official of Louisiana, I would like to go on record as saying that I would like to see that money spent somewhere else in the State, that would give us some protection, rather than to come in there and make that cut, when there isn't any doubt in my mind that within the next 3 or 4 years the cut will close up.

I cannot see any real engineering logic for it, with the exception of this one thing, which I think it might be fair to point out to this committee at this time, that in years to come, in the event that the cut-off above the point does not operate as it was intended when the cut was made, and it worked somewhat to the west, then there will be washing or caving in to the point at Vidalia.

In other words, if this cut across here, to bring this stream down to the center of the present river-if that does not maintain itself, or widens on both sides of the present cut, and because of soil conditions most of the washing or the enlargement of the cut takes place to the west, then in that event there will be some attack along this front. That is something that none of us can tell, as to what might happen.

But we do know in the case of this cut being made, that the attack will be down in here, about where the shading is, where there will be some little caving in of the bank, that is on the opposite side of the river from Vidalia. In the event that 10 or 15 years from now this river widens to the west, and some washing of this bank takes place, the values behind that levee are enough to justify the Government in putting in bank protection work, as they have done in all other small towns along the river.

At that time, if the bank caves faster-and there is no caving at this time, and no signs of it-but if it does develop that way, then it would be time enough to consider turning over that levee, 600, 800, or 1,000 feet across the town, to provide for that caving. Such is being done along the entire river today, in all other sections.

There is absolutely no reason that we can see at this time for throwing out that highly cultivated area which has been under cultivation in the rear of this town here, and which supplies fine produce to the town of Natchez and the town of Vidalia. Those plantations have been operated there, I guess, Judge Dale, as far back as any property on the river?

Mr. DALE. One hundred years. Some of the owners have had record title to them for more than 100 years.

Mr. JACOBS. I cannot see any reason for that condition, and I believe that most of the Government engineers would agree with me. Mr. DALE. I think Mr. Murray would like to be heard.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; the mayor of Vidalia is here. But I will state again that the reason for taking this question up is that there have been many set-backs of levees and a good many cut-offs of bends, in order to assist in the flood-control work, but this will affect a county seat and an important town in the fifth district of Louisiana. I have arranged to have the engineers of the Mississippi River Commission before this committee, and I want the committee to get the reactions from both Mississippi and Louisiana, because we may have to make some recommendations here.

The mayor of Vidalia is here, and I would be glad to hear from him.

Mr. CRUMP. What is the distance of that cut-off down there? How far is it?

Mr. JACOBS. About 212 miles across there, or about 3 miles, depending, of course, on the exact location.

STATEMENT OF HON. GEORGE A. MURRAY, MAYOR OF THE TOWN OF VIDALIA, LA.

Mr. MURRAY. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, Judge Dale seems to have covered practically all of the points to be brought up in connection with our situation.

However, he failed to mention that between Natchez and Vidalia we have a ferry service there connecting two United States highways, main trunk highways from the east to the west, nos. 61 and 65, and there is also a railroad crossing there which handles a great quantity of freight.

Mr. SCHAEFFER. How large is the town of Vidalia?

Mr. MURRAY. A town of 1,200 population. Judge Dale stated, and Mr. Jacobs also, that we have a stable bank there, and the river is very deep.

In addition to that, the ground at that point is very high, in connection with the other land back of the town. In other words, I think our place is about 62 feet on the bench mark in the courthouse yard; that is our contour.

Of course, something has been stated about this cut-off in the back, this levee being set back to the proposed channel of the river, another cut-off back behind the town. That is simply under discussion. There is nothing definite about that. But if that should be done it is my opinion as a layman that Natchez would be off the river. If we had a new channel to carry the main body of the water, it would put Natchez on a lake, and I don't think anybody there wants that.

In connection with the town, as I stated before, we have about 1,200 population, and we have an electric light system, a waterworks system and a natural gas system. In fact, our people live there about as well as they do anywhere, and we are more fortunately situated than some other sections. My people do not want the levee set back. They want the levee enlarged on its present location, not only around the town, but, as Judge Dale stated, we want that levee enlarged down to the mouth of Red River, which will give us protection from the backwater. The people object strenuously to being moved back to another location. It upsets their business, there would be some disruption there, and if this farm land is taken it would have a serious effect on the value of the town. Even if it was moved back, they would have less farm land to draw from.

I am the manager of a plantation which is assessed by Vidalia, and the average yield of that particular plantation for the last 3 years has been 300 pounds of lint cotton per acre, which I believe is very much above the average for the State, and consequently I cannot see the reason or advisability of throwing that class of land outside of the levee.

It occurs to me that the United States Government in the West has spent enormous sums of money building dams in order to reclaim arid lands and to put them under cultivation. It does not exactly seem in line with that policy to throw away land that is already in a high state of cultivation, and has been for a number of years, and will probably continue so to the end of time, if we are allowed to remain where we are, and that is what we want.

We do not want the Government to buy our land, we do not want to be thrown outside of the levee. All we want is to remain where we are, and there is no reason why we should not.

Mr. CHASE. Just what is it you and your city fear? Do you fear a new cut from beyond the city to that point, or do you fear a cut down to the present level line will take away the eastern part of your town?

Mr. MURRAY. Our fear is that there will probably be a cut back of the town.

Mr. CHASE. That is what you are most fearful of, is the proposed new cut back of the town?

Mr. MURRAY. I think that eventually would occur.

Mr. CHASE. Have you any definite announcement on the part of the Government engineers that that is going to be done?

Mr. MURRAY. Just the newspaper articles.

Mr. CHASE. Just rumor?

Mr. MURRAY. Yes.

Mr. CHASE. Do you know when that is contemplated?

Mr. MURRAY. The idea has been expressed. Whether it was serious or not I don't know. I don't think it was. There was just an expression made to that effect.

Mr. CHASE. Is this new cut that is marked there in black-is that already under construction?

Mr. MURRAY. That is already under construction, and I think when that is completed it will cure the situation.

Mr. CHASE. If that is already under construction, it quite naturally will be finished, won't it?

Mr. MURRAY. Yes.

Mr. CHASE. Will there be any necessity thereafter for putting another cut west of your city?

Mr. MURRAY. I cannot conceive of any necessity for it.

Mr. CHASE. Mr. Jacobs, what is your thought about that? If you complete this new cut here, what purpose would there be in constructing a second cut west of this town!

Mr. JACOBS. There would only be one cut across the bend.

Mr. CHASE. There is one cut under construction now, indicated on the map in black?

Mr. JACOBS. That is above the town.

Mr. CHASE. That cut is going to be finished?

Mr. JACOBS. Yes, sir.

Mr. CHASE. What purpose would there be in putting another one to the west of this town, below there, and back of the town?

Mr. JACOBS. We cannot understand why, unless it is for the reason, possibly, of straightening the river in a general way at this time, while the river is being more or less straightened.

Mr. CHASE. Would that straighten the river, to have the cut now under construction northeast of the city, and a second one southwest of the city?

Mr. JACOBS. It would not.

Mr. CRUMP. It would make the situation a perfect menace.

Mr. CHASE. Yes; it would make it worse.

Mr. JACOBS. I might call attention to that point. If that cut is made across the point here, and this other cut works to the west, you will then have a horseshoe around in front of the town of Natchez similar to what is shown here at Lake St. John up above. In other words, this cut will close up at each end, leaving Natchez from having any access to the river, as a port town.

Mr. CHASE. From your previous statement, that is certain to happen, if what the mayor fears develops; you will have a closed lake in front of Natchez.

Mr. JACOBS. Yes.

Mr. CRUMP. Mr. Chairman, what is in this, nothing more than newspaper report? The mayor said he did not know anything further than newspaper report. Is that a fact?

The CHAIRMAN. Of course, that is sufficient for the people who are so vitally interested.

Mr. CRUMP. Are we just going on newspaper reports?

The CHAIRMAN. No; we are going to take that up.

Mr. CRUMP. Have you got anything tangible at all from the engineering department, to know whether or not they contemplate doing something?

The CHAIRMAN. No; unless it be the information that Mr. Jacobs has, that the Mississippi River Commission has been considering it, and they want to place that matter before the committee, because the Mississippi River Commission will later be here before us. Mr. ELLZEY. May I answer the question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. ELLZEY. It is my understanding that the engineers have stopped certain activities down there, pending an investigation.

Mr. CRUMP. Then there is something more than merely newspaper reports?

Mr. ELLZEY. Yes; it is my further understanding that the engineer at Vicksburg has stopped activities, pending such proposed project as has been outlined by the mayor and engineer from Louisiana. Mr. CRUMP. That is better than mere newspaper reports.

Mr. CHASE. What activities has he stopped?

Mr. ELLZEY. I will ask the engineer to answer that.

Mr. JACOBS. In the Giles cut-off they hit some hard pan or soft material on the east side of the present cut, over on this side, and it is my understanding that they have stopped operations there for present, until they make a further investigation of the material to the west of it.

Mr. CHASE. On that cut to which you are pointing?

Mr. JACOBS. Yes, sir. They are also feeling out the possibility of the levee board's furnishing the United States a right of way across the point to make the future cut.

Mr. CRUMP. You mean they have stopped that cut-off there, up here?

Mr. JACOBS. I don't know whether Mr. Ellzey is referring to levee work or to the actual work in the cut itself.

Mr. ELLZEY. It is my understanding that the cut is proceeding; but further north the levee work along the sides— Mr. JACOBS. That has all been suspended?

Mr. ELLZEY. That is the point.

Mr. CRUMP. You have many cuts down there?

Mr. JACOBS. What he means is that the extension of the levee line has stopped here [indicating on map].

Mr. CRUMP. They have not stopped this cut?

Mr. JACOBS. No, sir; but they have not given these people protection by constructing or enlarging the levee from Laconia down and around the point, as they have done elsewhere on the river. They have been holding that levee protection up, pending this investigation.

Mr. ELLZEY. May I add that this particular cut to which you pointed is not the one with which we are concerned anyhow? Mr. CHASE. Then they do have some tangible fear?

Mr. ELLZEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACOBS. I would like to state to the committee that the Mississippi River Commission is seriously considering this cut. I visited General Ferguson, the president of the Mississippi River Commission, at Vcksburg after the last trip of the Commission down the river, and while it is not assured, no action has been taken by the Commission on it, but they have requested the Board of State Engineers of Louisiana and the Fifth Louisiana Levee District for. cooperation in ascertaining the values and conditions existing at that point, if the cut were made, and that is the gossip in the articles appearing in the papers which the mayor of Vidalia saw.

Mr. CHASE. In order to make this record perfectly clear, just what cut are they seriously considering? Will you point out on the map the exact cut?

Mr. JACOBS. The cut that is under consideration is west of the town of Vidalia, across Vidalia Point.

Mr. ELLZEY. Where you say cut, you refer to the set-back, do you not?