Mr. ALLEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. GARMATZ. We will next hear Mr. Paul Gerin-LaJoie, representative of the Federation of St. Lawrence River Pilots of Montreal, Canada.

Do you have a prepared statement?

STATEMENT OF PAUL GERIN-LaJOIE, REPRESENTATIVE; ACCOMPANIED BY CAPT. J. G. CHARTIER, VICE PRESIDENT, FEDERATION OF ST. LAWRENCE RIVER PILOTS, AND PRESIDENT, CORPORATION OF ST. LAWRENCE-KINGSTON-OTTAWA PILOTS

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. No. I am sorry, I do not have any written statement, Mr. Chairman. We heard only 2 days ago of these hearings and I apologize for not having anything in writing.

Mr. GARMATZ. Will you give your name and identify the people you represent for the record?

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. My name is Paul Gerin-LaJoie, barrister from Montreal in the Province of Quebec, Canada, and I appear here as counsel for the Federation of St. Lawrence River Pilots.

I am accompanied by Capt. J. G. Chartier, who is the vice president of the Federation of St. Lawrence River Pilots and also the president of the Corporation of the St. Lawrence-Kingston-Ottawa Pilots.

I should mention right now that the Federation of St. Lawrence River Pilots is an incorporated body under the laws of Canada and does represent all pilots authorized under Canadian law to pilot ships between Father's Point below Quebec up to Kingston in the Province of Ontario and just facing the State of New York.

Mr. GARMATZ. What membership does that have?

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. The membership is about 300 pilots, Mr. Chair

man.

This federation is constituted of four local organizations, one being for pilots from Quebec to Father's Point, being called the Association of Pilots for the Harbor of Quebec and Belot; the second association grouping all pilots from Quebec City to Montreal, being called the Corporation of the Mid-Saint Lawrence Pilots; the third group being for the harbor of Montreal only, whose name is the Corporation of the Montreal Harbor Pilots; and the fourth group is the Corporation of St. Lawrence-Kingston-Ottawa Pilots, including all Canadian licensed pilots from Montreal up to Kingston.

All individual pilots, members of this federation or these four local organizations, are also members of the Canadian Merchant Service Guild, which is a trade union.

We are pleased to appear today in support of bill H.R. 10593.

Perhaps I should specify that the interest of the group I represent before you today, Mr. Chairman, is limited to the section of the St. Lawrence River from St. Regis up to Kingston. This is part of the Great Lakes area as defined in the bill which is before you.

This group is not directly concerned with the rest of the waters of the Great Lakes as defined in this bill, and the particular interest of this group is to state before this committee that the section of the St. Lawrence River and Great Lakes from St. Regis up to Kingston should be one of these restricted waters areas in which only registered pilots as defined in this bill, either United States registered pilots or

Canadian registered pilots, should be entitled to direct the conduct of ships under the usual authority of the master.

We have made a study of the bill before this committee, and, as I said a moment ago, we are very pleased to support it. There is only one suggestion we would like to make, and that would be in support of one of the proposals made yesterday before this committee by Mr. Shapiro.

We believe that pilotage in what should be restricted waters areas is of such importance that it ought, we suggest, respectfully, to be spelled out in the bill so that any person concerned might know for a long time to come, indefinitely, what would be the waters in which registered pilots would be required.

Actually, this group has made similar representations to the Canadian Parliament on other bills not concerned directly with this problem in the past, and they are being consistent in appearing here and making this suggestion.

The pilots appreciate that the President, of course, would, under this bill, have the power to designate this particular section between St. Regis and Kingston as one of the restricted-waters areas, but the Federation of Pilots believes that it would be better for everyone concerned, both pilots and shipping people, to know definitely after the bill is passed what sections of the St. Lawrence River and Great Lakes will require registered pilots to conduct them.

This is the only statement we would like to make in support of the bill, Mr. Chairman, and we would be pleased, of course, to answer any questions you might like to put to us.

Mr. GARMATZ. Mr. Drewry?

Mr. DREWRY. Do I understand that if the committee adopts the language suggested by Mr. Shapiro in describing the restricted waters it would meet your point?

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. Yes; it would, sir.

We are concerned particularly with the item (i) of the proposed amendment put forward by Mr. Shapiro.

Mr. DREWRY. That is an adequate description to meet your problem?

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. Yes; that would be an adequate description, and we do not wish to give any opinion as to the balance of the amendments suggested by Mr. Shapiro because we are not directly concerned with pilotage or the conduct of ships in other parts of the Great Lakes. Mr. DREWRY. Thank you. Mr. GARMATZ. Mr. Clark? Mr. CLARK. No questions. Mr. GARMATZ. Mr. Lennon?

Mr. LENNON. Mr. Barrister, then you subscribe to the statement which was made by Mr. Shapiro yesterday when he said, and I quote: We believe the Congress should be responsible for the area designation, allowing, as we propose, for the expansion of restricted areas following public hearings

and then he goes on to set out the general restricted areas, subject of course to future determinations if additional areas should be included in the restricted area?

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. Yes; we do subscribe to that statement, sir.

Mr. LENNON. Do you think that it would be a good policy for the pilots and the shippers to know in the beginning the general area that is restricted for the use of pilotage?

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. That is right, sir.

Mr. LENNON. Then as time develops over the period of the usage of the St. Lawrence Seaway and its other tributaries, it could be determined at a later date what other restricted areas should be added? Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. That is right, sir.

Mr. LENNON. Other than on that point, you folks support the principle enunciated in this particular legislation, H.R. 10593?

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. Yes, sir.

Mr. LENNON. Thank you.

Mr. GARMATZ. You are an active pilot, are you not?

Captain CHARTIER. Yes.

Mr. GARMATZ. If there is anything you want to add to the statement, feel free to go ahead.

Captain CHARTIER. No; there is nothing I want to add.

Mr. GARMATZ. Mr. Ray?

Mr. RAY. No questions.

Mr. GARMATZ. Mr. Dorn?

Mr. DORN. I merely want to thank the witness very much for coming here. I think he has made a very valuable contribution by his testimony and what he said will be of help to me in crystallizing my thinking.

I deeply appreciate your coming here to give us your consideration of this matter.

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. Thank you very much, sir.

Mr. GARMATZ. Mr. Nix?

Mr. Nix. Just one question.

You mention the importance and the necessity of having pilots and in those restricted waters, and when you made your representations to the Canadian Government on the same subject, you mentioned the feature of the safety as one of the reasons for your requests. are the other reasons?

What

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. The main reason, sir, is safety; but, of course, there would be an additional reason in the fact that if there is to be a regular pilotage service specifically designed for a definite area, there should be enough stability in that group to provide an efficient, permanent, and ready service of pilots for shipping, and that could hardly be provided if there weren't the stability which the present legislation would most probably offer to any pilot group.

Mr. Nix. Heretofore there has been no organization. It has been more or less on a hit-or-miss basis. There has been no established procedure; is that correct?

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. Not entirely, sir.

From St. Regis to Kingston there has been an established procedure, but entirely under Canadian law.

The idea of having American subjects participate in this pilotage area did not arise before the Seaway opened because up to that time ships were proceeding almost exclusively in Canadian waters, and as regards the balance of the Great Lakes, there have been groups of pilots set up in more recent years, but I wouldn't like to elaborate on this, since I do not represent those groups of pilots here.

Mr. Nix. The change of conditions, the establishment of the Seaway, and other factors all combine to make this move desirable?

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. Certainly, sir. That is the way we see it.

Mr. Nix. Thank you.

Mr. GARMATZ. Mr. Curtin ?

Mr. CURTIN. No questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. GARMATZ. Mr. Glenn?
Mr. GLENN. No questions.
Mr. GARMATZ. Mr Clark?
Mr. CLARK. No questions.
Mr. GARMATZ. Mr. Lennon?

Mr. LENNON. You heard Mr. Shapiro's statement with respect to the Congress designating specific foreign vessels that should be required to have these pilots aboard. Do you have any comments on that?

However, that would be applicable only to U.S. waters under this bill. Do you think that the Canadian Parliament or the Ministry of Transportation is likely to take the view that you have heard me express with respect to excluding only certain types of military vessels of the various countries which come into the St. Lawrence Seaway and its other tributaries which would be exempted from the pilotage license requirement?

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. We wouldn't care to express any opinion on this point as far as it concerns waters outside our district.

Mr. LENNON. Thank you just the same.

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, you would like me to add this: That this legislation would make it possible to have in these waters a system of pilotage comparable to what does exist in most State pilotage organizations, as far as I know, and what does exist in Canada on the St. Lawrence River, and in this way the new system would be coordinated with the other pilotage groups in what is considered to be the most efficient and practical manner.

Mr. GARMATZ. Thank you very much. We appreciate your being down here.

Mr. GERIN-LAJOIE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. GARMATZ. Next will be Conrad Fredin of the Lake Superior Pilots Association? Is he here?

STATEMENT OF CAPT. HARRY EVERSON, CERTIFIED PILOT OF LAKE SUPERIOR PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INC.; ACCOMPANIED BY CONRAD M. FREDIN, LAKE SUPERIOR PILOTS ASSOCIATION

Mr. FREDIN. Sir, I wonder if Captain Everson could speak on behalf of the association?

Mr. GARMATZ. Yes, sir.

Captain EVERSON. I am Capt. Harry Everson, and I speak on behalf of Lake Superior Pilots Association and myself in support of

H.R. 10593.

After reviewing the provisions of H.R. 10593 and its companion bill in the Senate, S. 3019, and after comparing the features of this. bill with H.R. 57, we wish to state that we are in favor of the proposals now under consideration and we are opposed to the provisions of H.R. 57.

For more than 40 years I have sailed every season on the Great Lakes. For 24 years I was a ships master and captain of vessels operating on the lakes. Upon my retirement in 1956, I was senior captain of the Interlake fleet and captain of its flagship.

Fro the commencement of navigation through the St. Lawrence Seaway to the close of the season in 1959, I was continuously engaged in piloting salt-water vessels on the lakes. Among other duties, I was pilot of the flagship of a U.S. naval squadron which sailed to Duluth

last year.

Mr. GARMATZ. How many members does this organization have? I would like to have it in the record.

Captain EVERSON. Sixteen.

Mr. GARMATZ. Sixteen?

Captain EVERSON. That is right.
Mr. GARMATZ. Go ahead.

Captain EVERSON. I am one of the founders of the Lake Superior Pilots Association, and worked as one of its regular pilots last year. Part of the time I guided vessels through the St. Mary's River and the locks at Sault Ste. Marie. The rest of the season I was assigned to the Duluth-Superior area.

It may not be of interest to you that during last year I personally piloted vessels of Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Greece, Honduras, Israel, Italy, Liberia, the Netherlands, Norway, Panama, Sweden, and the United Kingdom. In addition to these, other pilots of the association assisted vessels from Finland, Ireland, Spain, and Switzerland.

With regard to last year's operation, we have had commendation from the U.S. Coast Guard and favorable report from Canadian and foreign shippers. We have been encouraged by this.

Since the close of the season this winter, my associates and I have reviewed our problems and experiences to render improved service in the coming season.

So much for my qualifications to come before you today.

First of all, I would like to explain the use of the word "pilot." Under current practice on the Great Lakes, a seaman seeking promotion from his company to the job of a mate must first acquire a Coast Guard license as a pilot.

In their service aboard lake vessels, these individuals spend most of their time serving not as pilots, but as regular, watch-keeping officers attending to a variety of other duties.

Actually, and in proper use of the term, there is no need to have a pilot on board throughout most of a Great Lakes voyage. Only in difficult areas is this necessary. On the open waters the master may face problems of navigation or seamanship, but not of pilotage.

A pilot, as I understand the term, is an individual who specializes in guiding a variety of ships through a particular stretch of water. He should be an expert in his area of operation. He should be available at all hours and in all weather conditions. He should be familiar not only with the changing problems and dangers of the area which he serves, but also with the handling characteristics of different ships under different conditions.

In my opinion, we should offer true piloting service on the Great Lakes.