Senator ELLENDER. Booneville in Kentucky?

General CHORPENING. Yes, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. Since you have the 7 out of 8, you have of course reduced the amount of planning money for each project.

General CHORPENING. Generally, that is true, yes, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. Which of these seven is it that you will not be able to start after the expenditure herein provided?

General CHORPENING. Libby.

Senator ELLENDER. That is the only one?

General CHORPENING. Yes, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. And as to all others, had you spent the planning money provided for fiscal year 1955, you would then be in a position to start actual construction if need be?

General CHORPENING. That is our conclusion at this time, yes, sir.

LIBBY PROJECT

Senator CORDON (presiding). May I inquire as to whether the Libby project, assuming that planning were all completed, would be in condition to start at this time?

Colonel WHIPPLE. The Libby project, sir, even though planning were complete, would not be in condition to go ahead, and we are not requesting funds at this time to complete that planning but only to continue with certain phases of it for that reason.

Senator CORDON. I take it that the work you will do there will be the work that will be of most value to our people on the International Joint Commission in connection with the question which is still unsettled, with respect to an agreement with Canada for storage within Canada. Is that correct?

Colonel WHIPPLE. Yes, sir, that is correct. The International Joint Commission will need that information. But in addition, we do want to continue more work on the relocation problem, which has to be worked out for the site on which we are now working.

Senator CORDON. Is that not an exceptionally heavy portion of the overall cost in connection with Libby?

RELOCATION OF GREAT NORTHERN RAILROAD

Colonel WHIPPLE. Yes, sir, that is correct. A very extensive relocation of the Great Northern Railroad is required, and the planning has to be very carefully done to make sure that we have the cost estimates right and that the alinement will be acceptable to the railroad. We believe we will have a very much better chance to do that with the site at mile 217, on which we are now working.

Senator ELLENDER. Is this the dam that you are trying to relocate so as to meet some objections from the Canadians?

Colonel WHIPPLE. That is correct, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. Is it your view that by changing the location you are not going to have to comply with certain requirements made of us by the Canadians?

Colonel WHIPPLE. No, sir, that is not correct. If I may refresh the Senator on the background, this project will back water into Canada, and the effect on the Canadians in taking lands and depriving them of the right to develop their own power potential is the same for any

one of the three sites that have been considered. The effect downstream in terms of flood control and in beneficial effect on powerplants in Canada, which is also significant, is also substantially the same.

NEGOTIATION WITH CANADA

Senator ELLENDER. What progress, if any, has been made toward satisfying the Canadians?

Colonel WHIPPLE. The matter was introduced into the International Joint Commission. However, the negotiations were clouded by discussions that arose in connection with problems entirely within the United States on account of interferences that would be caused with lumbering operations and mineral rights, as well as railroad relocations, within the project area.

These difficulties were entailed by consideration of a site at mile 205, which is somewhat farther down the river, than had been considered originally. While extremely beneficial from the economic and engineering points of view, this site did entail very extensive interference with these interests.

Senator ELLENDER. Do you anticipate any difficulty in obtaining the assistance from the Canadians in building this project at any one of the three sites that you have in mind?

Colonel WHIPPLE. The Canadians are not really concerned as to which site we build it on, sir. But we must resolve these American problems. We have within the last year concluded our studies which indicate that we should move this dam site upstream to mile 217, which will obviate the difficulty entirely, from the standpoint of the mineral and lumbering interests that have been objecting to our prior plans most strenuously, and we believe will meet the legitimate objections of the Great Northern Railroad.

Senator ELLENDER. Before you do all of that, have you satisfied yourself that the demands made on us by the Canadians will not be insurmountable; that you can comply with them? As I remember, they were asking for the pound of flesh, and the blood, too.

General CHORPENING. Senator, after we have fully resolved these completely American problems of the relocations-which, as Colonel Whipple has stated, we feel we are in a very good position to now dothen our action would be to again request the reference of this matter to the International Joint Commission, who would then go into negotiations with the Canadians on the problems, which will be the same for the new site as they were for the old site.

Senator ELLENDER. Since the problems are the same, why is it necessary to complete your agreement with the Americans? Why can it not be done at the same time? I can visualize a situation where the demands from the Canadians may be so great we cannot meet them, or we would not want to meet them.

General CHORPENING. It was considered that since we, in our own house, did not have a firm site at this time, and one that appeared to be the most suitable, it would be well to keep it entirely in our own hands until those problems were resolved, and then again refer it to the International Joint Commission.

PROBLEMS OF INTERNATIONAL JOINT COMMISSION

Senator CORDON. Is it not also true that the International Joint Commission has quite a portfolio of problems where there are different views on each side of the International Boundary, almost all its length? As a result, if you do not get Libby in shape so that if you do get an agreement you can go forward, you have taken a lot of time and effort to get an agreement that will be futile when you get it. It will not advance the standing of our members of the International Joint Commission. They have taken the time of the Canadians, and it does take some time as there are some engineering factors and a lot of other effort that is necessary on their side, and it will not raise the value of our stock with them if we had them go through all of that and reach an agreement and we are not in a position on our side to effectuate it. General CHORPENING. That is correct, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. You do not expect any insurmountable differences on the American side, do you?

General CHORPENING. No, sir, not on the American side. As to these matters of negotiation with the Canadians, it always takes time to reach agreement on problems of such major importance.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, let me ask you this: As to those who are objecting to some of your plans on the American side, are they hooked up in some way in Canada?

General CHORPENING. I don't think so; no, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. That is, with timber and railroads, and things like that?

General CHORPENING. No, sir. The timber company that was involved is entirely an American company.

Senator ELLENDER. And there is no connection between the two? General CHORPENING. The mineral situation is entirely an American enterprise. The railroad is the Great Northern Railroad, completely American.

Senator CORDON. Is this not the case where the timber involved is national forest timber that is under a contract to some company to cut on a sustained yield, a long-term contract? I think I am correct.

General CHORPENING. I think it is a combination of what the Senator stated, and then I think some of it is actually owned by the timber company. They have a very fine timbering operation going on there, as planned utilization of national forestland and their own land. I have been there and spent a half day looking it over. It is a fine timbering operation.

Senator CORDON. I knew it was in connection with one of the Montana dams. Is there not a Glacier View that was a possible dam, also?

SALE OF STUMPAGE

I say, Senator Ellender, now that I have it definitely located, the information that has come to me is that there was this contract made for sale of stumpage by the Forest Service to this timber company, under the law providing for the setting up of sustained yield cutting cycles within the national forests, and for the cooperative effort of the national forest with private owners. This is the first time that I knew it fell into the latter category. Pursuant to that contract, a great deal

of money was spent building roads to the Forest Service specifications, and that sort of thing, in order to get the timber out in the most economical way.

The contention was made by the holders of the contract that this particular flooding from this milepost that was mentioned here would require them to make a terrifically expensive relocation of their roads, and so forth, in order to get that same timber out. I think that is the situation that exists. Is that subsantially correct, Colonel?

Colonel WHIPPLE. Yes, sir.

General CHORPENING. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Senator CORDON. I assume when you do this work that you are asking money for now, that this is a necessary expenditure to determine feasibility or practicability of moving your dam from mile 205 to mile 217?

Colonel WHIPPLE. Yes, sir. We have actually determined to our own satisfaction that it is desirable to make the move. But having made that basic decision, we still want to work out further the relocation plan to be able to convince the railroad that it will be satisfactory to them, and in that way obviate the last legitimate objection that we know of to building this project on the United States side of the boundary, and to clear the decks for presenting this plan to the International Joint Commission as a United States proposal and get the most favorable arrangement we can, to see whether we can work something out to have it constructed.

Senator ELLENDER. Of the half million dollars already spent on this project for planning, will that be lost, or can the information gathered be useful?

Colonel WHIPPLE. It can be useful to a partial extent, sir. I wouldn't say that any engineering planning is wasted if it results in improvement in the plan. The fact that we have worked on three different sites does mean that we have had to spend a good deal of money on project planning; and this money will not be sufficient, and will not bring the project even yet to the stage where construction could be initiated.

Is that all on that project, sir?

Senator CORDON. I think that is all, yes. I have one other question before we leave that. Are you leaving the seven projects now? General CHORPENING. I Wonder what other information the committee would desire on those.

Senator CORDON. It occurs to me that it would be of value to the committee if you would make a short statement with reference to each one of them as to what the planning is intended to accomplish, and the extent to which funds heretofore appropriated have advanced the planning. That would be helpful.

FORT GAINES LOCK AND DAM, ALA.

Colonel WHIPPLE. All right, sir. The first one is the Fort Gaines project on the Chattahoochee River. With the available funds we will be able to complete the general design studies and with the funds requested of $20,000 we will be able to complete detailed planning on geology on the embankment for the project, including plans and spec

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ifications on concrete aggregate and some further planning on real estate, which will put the project in shape where construction can be initiated when funds become available.

HARTWELL RESERVOIR, S. C.-GA.

Senator CORDON. Now Hartwell.

Colonel WHIPPLE. The funds allotted to date are $815,600. We are asking for $50,000. With that we intend to complete detailed planning on the mapping, the concrete dam itself, the relocations and the powerhouse, and further studies of the concrete aggregate.

In addition, we want detailed planning on the turbines so that contracts can be let at an early date. This again will put this project in good shape to start construction whenever funds are appropriated.

Senator CORDON. Incidentally, let us have the record locate again Hartwell Reservoir as being the project that was discussed yesterday as being upstream from Clark Hill.

Colonel WHIPPLE. Upstream from Clark Hill on the Savannah River and will tie in very intimately with the operation of that project and by its storage will increase the power produced from that project, as the chairman brought out in yesterday's testimony.

FORT PECK DAM

Senator CORDON. Fort Peck is the next project.

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Colonel WHIPPLE. The Fort Peck Dam is already, of course, in ation for flood control, water conservation, and has one powerplant already installed.

Senator CORDON. Is the initial installed capacity of the powerplant now installed?

Colonel WHIPPLE. A total of 85,000 kilowatts is now installed. The plant now contemplated will be 80,000 kilowatts.

Senator CORDON. Eighty thousand kilowatts?

Colonel WHIPPLE. Yes, sir.

Senator CORDON. Does that mean when you use that term "second powerplant" that you must build a whole plant, powerhouse and everything?

Colonel WHIPPLE. Yes. On account of the construction of that project there will be two powerhouses built.

Senator CORDON. Were they contemplated when the dam was built? Colonel WHIPPLE. No, sir. When the dam was built the necessity for this extent of power development had not been fully determined. The project was originally designed for conservation storage in the interest of navigation and flood control on the Missouri River and it was only later that power development to this extent was authorized.

BENEFIT COST RATIO

Senator CORDON. And the relationship of cost to benefit represents the relationship only of this second powerplant?

Colonel WHIPPLE. No, sir. The quoted benefit-cost ratio given as 1.8 to 1 was the project as a whole. The power benefits of this powerplant alone are actually higher than that.