I am going to get one more panel in at this time and then we will have to abide by the time in order to close at 5 o'clock.

All of you can submit your statements as if read. You will submit it to the court reporter and it will be incorporated in the record as if read; however, we may have to cut you off from a personal appearance. Now the next panel is Harold Arnold; Richard Minnich; and Robbin Schellhous.

First, we will hear from Mr. Arnold.

STATEMENT OF HAROLD W. ARNOLD, SCOUT EXECUTIVE, LONG BEACH AREA COUNCIL, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, LONG BEACH, CALIF.

Mr. ARNOLD. I am Harold W. Arnold representing the Long Beach Area Council, Boy Scouts of America, was officially organized in 1918 for the purpose of bringing together boys of our community in a program of character building, citizenship training, and selfreliance.

The program of scouting which has been functioning in the United States since 1910 uses as an important part of its program camping and outdoor activities as we develop self-reliance in these future citizens.

In 1925, the council secured property in the Idyllwild area where we could hike in the back country on the slopes of San Jacinto in order to give our boys the opportunity to have a taste of the wilderness and to develop Scouting skills and self-reliance.

The wilderness area of San Jacinto was taken away with the construction of a tram lift from Palm Springs which carries sightseers high up the mountain and gives them an opportunity for an easy walk into what used to be wilderness area.

Because of the fact that the wilderness of San Jacinto was taken away from us, the Long Beach Area Council, Boy Scouts of America, purchased 640 acres of land in the Barton Flats area in order that we might have the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area as hiking country.

We are one of the many youth organizations that take advantage of this hiking country on the north slopes of San Gorgonio. This is the last wilderness area available in southern California and if it is open for easy access and ski lift operation, our boys will have had taken from them, the last place in which they can hike without seeing cars and mechanical equipment. The joy of hiking into wilderness areas is lost when you are constantly confronted with an automobile in which someone has ridden in, or with a ski lift with its mechanical operation.

The Long Beach Area Council has a membership of nearly 18,000 boys and leaders and we are hopeful that our last wilderness area in southern California can be preserved.

During the course of our existence, we have had over 100,000 boys in scouting, we have had 1,217 boys who have attained their eagle rank, and we have furnished innumerable young men who, because of their background of training in self-reliance and love of country, have become officers in our Armed Forces with credit to themselves, our country, and our organization.

With this background on the Long Beach Area Council, I would like to present the following answers relative to questions raised by proponents of H.R. 6891:

We would agree that in order for the people of southern California to lead full, well-rounded lives, it is very desirable that recreational areas and facilities be available to the greatest possible number. With our 7 million people in southern California now and an anticipation that this will increase to 28 million in a comparatively short number of years, it is most important that the best possible use be made of all lands. Winter sports are most expensive and only a small percentage of our people can enjoy them. Skiing is even more expensive with a less number of people participating.

If San Gorgonio were developed with one ski lift, it would seem probable that not more than 1,200 people could use this lift on any one skiing day. In addition to this, it would seem according to best records, that we would be most fortunate to have 100 skiing days in the course of a year. This would limit skiing, if maximum facilities were used, to not more than 120,000 people or a rather small select percentage of those residing in southern California.

Summer recreation in this area, which is now guaranteed by the wilderness bill, would be able to accommodate many times this number of people as the cost is comparatively small. The 30 youth camps in the immediate area of San Gorgonio would have at least 50,000 of our young people using this back country in a given summer, in addition to millions of other people who might have an opportunity to visit it.

If San Gorgonio area remains a part of the wilderness, it is still available to the rugged skiers; it is available to those who would like to get into the back country away from civilization and would be used by many of these groups. The lack of a ski lift only makes it unavailable to the downhill skiers, who presently are served by 10 other ski lifts in southern California. Skiing in San Gorgonio is certainly compatible with other uses of the area, but this is rugged skiing and not the skiing established by lifts with a high concentration of use.

The suggestion that one ski lift would serve the San Gorgonio area if this change in the wilderness bill were effected, does not seem realistic as the plans that have been prepared and circulated by the group interested in building ski lifts are shown including nine lifts covering the entire north slope of the mountain. So, apparently, we are not talking about whether we set aside 3,500 acres for family recreation but whether we open the entire wilderness area to a commercial venture. The question of opening 10 percent of the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area does not seem to be valid as, if you take the heart out of an area, you have in fact taken the entire section. Necessary roads for access and other necessary facilities needed would require that much more than this area be opened and used.

The statement has been made that skiing would be at a much higher elevation than that used by hikers. One of the best back country hikes is to the top of San Gorgonio where the opportunity to write your name in the book and look over the total countryside is prized by all of our young people who camp in this area.

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The greatest good for the greatest number would certainly be served by maintaining the wilderness area and keeping it available for those willing to hike in.

It has been stated that the total number of acres in the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area would not be reduced because land would be provided adjacent to this area. If there is adjacent land available, it would seem that it should be secured and added to the total area to provide additional land for the millions of people still coming into southern California.

With 10 ski lifts presently available in southern California, the small percentage of our people who are avid skiers are certainly being served well. What we need is to preserve areas for the millions of other residents who cannot afford this type of sport.

The Long Beach Area Council, Boy Scouts of America, would like to petition this special committee of Congress to use their influence in preserving the integrity of the wilderness bill as established by retaining the total San Gorgonio Wilderness Area for the people of southern California.

Thank you.

Mr. BARING. Thank you very much, sir.
Next speaker, please.

STATEMENT OF ROBBIN SCHELLHOUS, LONG BRANCH AREA COUNCIL, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, LONG BRANCH, CALIF.

Mr. SCHELLHOUS. My name is Robbin Schellhous and this testimony is presented on behalf of the Tribe of Tahquitz, an honorary camping organization of the Long Beach Area Council, Boy Scouts of America. The Tribe of Tahquitz was organized in 1925 at Camp Tahquitz in Idyllwild, Calif., with the purpose of promoting Scout camping through service and example. Its primary service to the Long Beach Area Council since 1925 has been to provide personnel qualified to serve on the summer camp staff for Camp Tahquitz. When Camp Tahquitz moved from Idyllwild to Barton Flats in 1959, the Tribe of Tahquitz became vitally interested in the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area. Camp Tahquitz is located on the northern edge of the wilderness area, immediately north of San Bernardino Peak.

My qualifications for speaking on behalf of the Tribe of Tahquitz include 4 years of camp staff experience. For the past 3 years I have been an officer for the Tribe of Tahquitz. Last summer, as chief of the tribe, I was in charge of the entire camp staff and director of the overall summer camp back country, or overnight pack trip, program. Thus, this testimony reflects the views of the Tribe of Tahquitz, and more specifically, the view of the members of the camp staff of Camp Tahquitz.

The heart of the entire program of the Boy Scouts of America is based on camping and outdoor living. Therefore, one of the most essential elements of the summer program of Camp Tahquitz is the back-country program. Back-country camping gives boys a chance to put into practice the many skills of cooking, first aid, stalking, pioneering, nature lore, and wilderness survival which characterize all Boy Scout advancement requirements. Most all skills related to camping can be practiced at the city park or even in your own backyard; but

true camping can only be experienced when the spirit of camping is present. It is the wilderness which provides this intangible spirit of camping. It is only in the wilderness where boys can enjoy the thrill of being alone with the equipment they can carry on their backs and the knowledge they can carry in their heads. If the element of civilization is added to the wilderness, the spirit of camping is lost.

Use of the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area varies with each individual troop which comes to Camp Tahquitz. Throughout the summers until 1963, troops from Camp Tahquitz made extensive use of the Slushy Meadows-Dollar Lake area for their back-country experiences. Some troops made day hikes to Slushy Meadows or Dollar Lake, while other troops spent as many as 4 days in the back country. For many of these 11-, 12-, and 13-year-old boys, it marked their first visit to a real wilderness. Most troops, however, hiked from Camp Tahquitz to Slushy Meadows or Dollar Lake, spent the night, and returned to camp the following afternoon. Many of the older boys climbed Mount San Gorgonio as part of their experience.

Beginning in 1964, several factors forced a shift in the use of the wilderness area from the Slushy Meadows-Dollar Lake to the Dry Lake-Fish Creek area. Slushy Meadows was too overcrowded. Troops often hiked for hours, only to find the meadows crammed with 200 and 300 other people. Dollar Lake was running out of firewood. Sanitary facilities were no longer very sanitary. Trails were showing signs of erosion from use and overuse and misuse. Trash and litter were accumulating at an alarming rate. In general, boys were no longer able to enjoy the spirit of camping, that intangible element without which true camping is impossible.

In an effort to relieve the overcrowded conditions of the Slushy Meadows-Dollar Lake area, and at the same time to restore the spirit of camping to the back-country program, troops from Camp Tahquitz began to use the Dry Lake-Fish Creek area. As this area became more familiar to the camp staff back-country guides, it rapidly gained popularity among the troops. This relatively little-used area was uncrowded, there was enough firewood, and it was uncluttered with trash. It was tremendously appealing because it was still in a virtual natural state, untouched by civilization. Use of this area restored the spirit of camping to our back-country program. We emphasized this area almost exclusively in 1965 and of necessity expect to continue doing so in 1966. Furthermore, we fully expect other youth camps in the area to follow suit.

Therefore, based on our extensive use of the Dry Lake-Fish Creek area and the expected use by other groups in the future, we are strongly opposed to any development in this area which will alter the present condition of the wilderness. Family winter recreation areas such as ski lifts will remove the spirit of camping so essential to any camping program by introducing the element of civilization to the wilderness. If this spirit of camping is removed from camping in the wilderness, we may as well stay home and camp in our backyards.

The elements of civilization will be visible in the form of roads and fallen trees. But elements not so obvious and often overlooked will include powerlines, pipelines, and access roads cut to lay those lines. Also not so obvious an element of civilization is the ultimate pollution of water resources by the huge network of sanitary facilities which will

be necessary if the winter recreation areas are to provide for any great number of people.

Further, we feel that if such development were allowed, and then operated only in the winter months, the very presence of any forms of civilization would still remove the spirit of camping during the summer months.

Thus, the members of the camp staff of Camp Tahquitz, having provided the back-country guides for Camp Tahquitz for the past 40 years, are strongly in favor of maintaining the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area in its present state, untouched by the marks of civilization.

Thank you.

Mr. BARING. Thank you, sir.

The next speaker will be Mr. Richard A. Minnich.

STATEMENT OF RICHARD A. MINNICH, LONG BEACH AREA COUNCIL, BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA, LONG BEACH, CALIF.

Mr. MINNICH. As a staff member of the Long Beach Area Council summer camp in Barton Flats, I have recently surveyed in cooperation with the U.S. Forest Service the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area in order to develop a 5-day trail for the purpose of primitive area hiking. I have spent considerable time and effort hiking through and becoming familiar with the area concerned in H.R. 6891 while completing the area survey of this trail. This primitive area trail, named the Broken Arrow Trail, is available for use to the Scouts of southern California and to the general public. The Long Beach Area Council plans extensive use of this trail in the spring of 1966.

The primary purpose of this trail is the practice of primitive area hiking and camping skills. This hike teaches modern methods of survival without contact with civilization. All supplies for this hike must be backpacked or obtained from the wilderness. The hikers are then solely dependent upon their own ingenuity. The hike also provides an environment in which the basic skills of outdoorsmanship can be practiced. The use of this trail will provide opportunity to observe and study a natural uncivilized environment. The success of this trail will depend upon its location in an uncivilized environment.

The Broken Arrow Trail makes use of 40 miles of existing trails extending from one end of the wilderness to the other. The trail goes up Fish Creek Canyon over the Ten Thousand Foot Ridge to North Fork Meadows (Whitewater River drainage). It then follows the new North Fork Trail to the Dry Lake Saddle and then goes down to the bench between Christmas Tree Hill and San Gorgonio and Jepson Peaks. The trail will then traverse Charlton Peak to Dollar Lake and will then proceed up to the Dollar Lake Saddle and then along the San Bernardino Ridge. The hikers may then hike down the Forsee Creek Trail or continue along the ridge to Camp Angelus. Included as a highlight of the trail is the climbing of Mount San Gorgonio. Along the Broken Arrow Trail there are 10 primitive camps available for overnight camping, 8 of which have water.

If H.R. 6891 is approved; however, it will be impossible to conduct primitive area hiking as proposed for the Broken Arrow Trail.

The development of access roads and ski lifts will seriously disturb the relation of flora and fauna not only in the heartland of the wilder