Have you got the form of the warra nt of nomination ?I have.

Is the same form used for a pensioner and scholar?— It is.

To

of

[It was delivered in, and read, as follows :]

I Do hereby nominate and appoint

be a

in the county of

to

of the foundation in Charter-house,

on the vacancy now in my disposal. Dated this
day of

17

The Master and Register of

Sutton's Hospital in Charter-house.

Mr. WILLIAM ALLEN, again called in, and Examined.

From your observation upon the state of education among the lower orders, what should you say was the proportion of uneducated poor in the country generally? As far as our inquiries have gone, it has appeared that, taking the whole population, about one in twenty would require education upon the general plan; that is, we calculate that one-twentieth part, including all ages, require to be assisted in education.

Do you mean, that supposing the population of England and Wales to be ten millions, about five hundred thousand require education ?-Certainly; I think that they have not the means of obtaining it without assistance.

What should you calculate would be the expense, upon the British and Foreign school plan, of giving education to that number?-The expense will vary according to local circumstances; where the number of children are sufficient

to form a school of 500 or 600 in one place, the total expense per annum, in my opinion, need not exceed 2007. or so much. We generally calculate that the expense per head, in the largest schools, should not exceed five or six shillings; but it is obvious that local circumstances, such as the price of provisions, the rent of premises, &c. will cause a difference in different places.

Should you think twelve shillings a head a fair average, taking schools of all sizes into account, one with another ? -Yes.

Do you mean thereby to cover the expenses of schoolrooms? All expenses, except those requisite for the first erection of the building; but, as I stated before upon my last examination, the expense of every school upon the British and Foreign Society plan, consists in the salary of the master, the rent of the room, and about 20%. more or less, according to the size of the school, for apparatus, together with the expenses of school-rooms, fuel, &c.

Then do you mean to calculate that from three to four hundred thousand pounds a year would suffice for the education of all the poor now uneducated?-Certainly; if the sum of 400,000l. could be devoted to that purpose, every child requiring this sort of education might be provided with it throughout England and Wales, so as to leave not an uneducated person in the country; and in my opinion a much smaller sum would suffice.

Do you consider this as a moderate or large estimate?— Certainly as a large estimate.

Can you give the Committee any estimate, generally, of the expenses of a school-room?-The school-room at Kingsland, in the neighbourhood of London, was erected for a less sum than 400l. and will contain 300 children; but in many parts of the country, an old barn or an old warehouse might be found, which would prevent the necessity of erecting a new building.

Should you say that, generally speaking, in the neighbourhood of London, a building for 500l. would admit from 500 to 600 children into the school?—I should think from four to five hundred. It is to be recollected, in estimating the expense for a certain number of scholars, we calculate upon the number of children who shall be at any one time receiving the benefits of education in one school-room, but it never happens that the total number are always present. Thus in a school-room which is calculated to hold 1000 children, you will never get more than between 800 or 900 to attend at one time, and that is particularly the case in manufacturing districts; persons will keep their children at home a day or two for certain purposes of business, but

still they are getting about three or four times as much instruction as they would procure in a Sunday school.

Suppose a grant were made merely of the money required to build the school, and the annual expenses were to be defrayed by subscriptions, would such meet with assistance, in your apprehension, in the progress of the system?-In my apprehension it would do every thing, because it would encourage benevolent persons in the neighbourhood to promote school associations throughout their districts, on the plan recommended by the British and Foreign School Society, in which the poor themselves would become interested in the education of their children, and receive it, not merely as an act of charity, but as a thing which they themselves had subscribed for.

Have you seen many instances of schools upon the new plan, in which the children paid a small sum?-At Northampton, in my journey to the North, I found an excellent school established upon the plan of the British and Foreign School Society, which had been supported by subscriptions, but those having fallen off, it occurred to the managers to endeavour to interest the parents of the poor children in the support of the school, and they accordingly received from them small subscriptions, which by the last accounts received appear to be sufficient to support the school entirely; and in many of the schools upon our plan, the parents pay one penny per week for the education of their children.

Is there no risk, if money were given for the commencement of the undertakings, by erecting or providing schools, new buildings would in every case be erected, instead of the more economical mode being resorted to of finding old barns or warehouses adapted to the purpose?-So general is the conviction now entertained among benevolent persous throughout the kingdom, of the great importance of educating the poor, that nothing more would be required, in my opinion, than to assist such benevolent individuals in providing suitable school-rooms in the most economical

way.

In the estimate formerly made of the number of uneducated children, do you refer to those who at the commencement of the plan in contemplation would then be to be provided for ?-My estimate was made upon the supposition that nothing had been done hitherto, and that the sole question was, how to provide for the want of edu

cation.

Would not this number of uneducated children be diminished in the course of the first two years?-If this plan were put into action, in the course of less than one year the whole might be provided for, and the number would

be materially diminished; inasmuch as the want of education, notwithstanding all which has been done, is now so great, that we calculate, upon the total average of the kingdom, that about one half of the poor attend no school

at all.

Would the annual expense be diminished in the same. proportion?-It would be diminished, but not in the same proportion as the numbers decreased, because the expense of the schoolmaster would be nearly the same; the number of children requiring to be educated, after the arrear had been disposed of, would only consist of those who were arriving at the age of six years; but at the beginning of the plan it would be necessary to provide means for children from six to fourteen years of age.

Would it be necessary then, in contemplation of this diminution of the number to be provided for, to begin by erecting schools sufficient to accommodate the whole of the larger number; or might not some temporary accommodation be found for the larger number, and permanent schools only provided for that number requiring education, which would probably be permanent ?-Under the circumstances of the case, it would appear advisable to provide substantially for the permanent education of the lower number, and to resort to some temporary expedients for educating the arrear at present unprovided for.

At what time did you make the calculation of 500,000 ? About two years ago.

Have you not deducted from the 500,000 the number that have been since educated?-No; it is to be remarked, that since the period of this calculation, the progress of the British system and that of similar establishments for education has been exceedingly great; so that the total number requiring education, will be considerably smaller than the

number stated.

Did you include in that number those children at that time receiving education in any establishment for the purpose?-The calculation, as I before remarked, was founded upon the want of education, which we discovered in attempting to form schools in several districts.

Suppose a place is large enough to maintain a school upon the National plan, and one upon the British and Foreign plan, so that Churchmen may send their children to both indiscriminately, and Dissenters to the British and Foreign school, would the two systems at all interfere with one another in such a place, whatever they might do in a smaller place-If there were funds capable of supporting both, they need not interfere with each other; we had an example of a town large enough to support two schools, one

upon each system, in which, if I mistake not, the same gentleman is president of both.

Have you more than one instance of that kind?—I do not recollect another instance of the kind.

Do you know an instance in which the same person might not be president of both schools, and the same benevolent people who could conduct the management of one, might on the other hand do so with the management of the other?-I certainly know instances of benevolent individuals who are disposed to be equally active on either system, from a firm conviction that education is one of the principal means of raising the moral character of the poor; and though they would certainly prefer that plan which would provide it indiscriminately for their denominations, yet they are so earnest that the poor should be educated, that they will render assistance to every attempt of the kind.

Suppose a place is too small to support a school upon both plans, do you see any means of teaching Dissenters there upon the new system?-The great probability is, from the experience we have had, that the want of co-ope ration between the parties will, under such circumstances, prevent the establishment of any school at all; there are several places in the kingdom now in which that is the case; it is not large enough to support two, and they cannot agree upon one.

Suppose a National school were established, at which the children of Churchmen were taught the catechism and obliged to go to church, and the children of Dissenters not obliged to go to church, but only to attend some place of worship, and to be employed in some way, while the other children were learning the catechism; what would prevent the Dissenters from sending their children to such school? My opinion is that they would very generally send them, But the difficulty in supporting such a school would arise from this circumstance, that some of the subscribers would conscientiously object to the appropriation of any of the funds to the teaching any peculiar creed, from a conviction that that ought to form a part of the duty of the minister of each religious profession.

Do children belonging to the Church attend schools upon. the plan of the British and Foreign School Society?—In great numbers; within my knowledge there are several schools upon our plan, where from eight to nine tenths of the children belong to parents of the Establishment; and it is the constant endeavour of the promoters of this system, that those should all attend the Established Church regularly, while the others are required to attend such place of wor ship as their parents may prefer.