We have not terminated the services of these 112 persons for the reason all of them took a civil-service examination requested by the Railroad Retirement Board and a good many of them may be reemployed as occasion permits, as they, most of them, are now on a roster of eligibles for the Railroad Retirement Board.

Mr. MAPES. How were these 800 employees of the Board selected? Were all of them selected without reference to the civil service? Mr. LATIMER. No, sir; most of them with reference to the civil service.

Mr. MAPES. The act provides that they may be selected without regard to the civil service.

Mr. LATIMER. No, sir; the present act places us completely under the civil service.

I should explain first, that when the Board was first set up, we were permitted by the Civil Service Commission to engage temporary persons with railroad experience to help us get started on an adjudication of annuity claims. We employed some 250 persons, of whom I believe all but 102 have now been replaced by civil-service personnel.

We have, in addition, these people in the field, but excluding the field personnel, we have about 600 persons under civil service and about 100 outside.

Mr. MAPES. They came under the civil service since their original appointment, did they not?

Mr. LATIMER. No, sir.

Mr. MAPES. The act provides that the Commission shall— Mr. LATIMER (interposing). That is the investigating commission, I think, sir.

Mr. MAPES. That is what?

Mr. LATIMER. That is the investigating commission. That is not the Retirement Board.

The Railroad Retirement Board is at the present time, and has been since its inception, subject to the rules and regulations of the Civil Service Commission, without exceptions, except for the members of the Board and their secretaries, and the usual exemptions under schedule A.

Mr. MAPES. I have in my hand what I thought was a copy of the act creating the Board.

Mr. LATIMER. Is that no. 399, sir?

Mr. MAPES. Yes. That language has reference to the investigating commission, and not the Board?

Mr. LATIMER. Not the Board.

Mr. MAPES. The employees of the Retirement Board itself are under the civil service, are they?

Mr. LATIMER. Yes, sir.

Mr. MAPES. In that respect, the proposed bill differs from the existing law?

Mr. LATIMER. That is true.

Mr. MARTIN. Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Martin.

Mr. MARTIN. What was the principal activity of these field men was it in connection with the eligibility of employees for retirement? Mr. LATIMER. Yes, sir; with the exception, I believe, of two lawyers, that was their sole function.

Mr. MARTIN. That was the information that you were prevented by the court's order from securing from the railroad companies? Mr. LATIMER. Yes, sir.

Mr. MARTIN. That is what you employed these people for?

Mr. LATIMER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Mapes, have you concluded your examination? Mr. MAPES. I do not know whether this is a question that you can

answer or not

Mr. BULWINKLE. I cannot hear you, Mr. Mapes.

Mr. MAPES. I say I am not sure that this is a question that Mr. Latimer can answer, whether it is or not, but we will probably be asked this on the floor:

Is it the contemplation of the proponents of the legislation that the existing Board shall be continued under the new act and that the force shall continue on, about as organized at the present time? Mr. LATIMER. I believe so; yes, sir. I understand so.

Mr. HAY. May I say that there is an express provision in this amending act to the effect that this shall not affect the existing Retirement Board. I think their jobs will be secure, so far as both parties are concerned.

Mr. LATIMER. I think Mr. Mapes refers more particularly to the staff then the members of the Board.

Mr. HAY. It contemplates the Board, and I am sure that it contemplates the continuation of the staff or force.

Mr. LATIMER. Mr. Harrison made the statement the other day that the provisions of this bill would not in any way affect the civilservice status of those employees with the Railroad Retirement Board who now have a civil-service status. He has made the statement also that the transfer of persons under the civil service to the Retirement Board would not result in any loss of civil-service status. Mr. MAPES. What would be accomplished then by the provision which says that the employees of the Board shall be selected without regard to civil-service laws and their compensation fixed without reference to the Classification Act?

Mr. LATIMER. It would have, of course, whatever effect it does have, solely with reference to exansion and replacements.

Mr. MAPES. Is it contemplated that there will be a substantial expansion of the force under this new law?

Mr. LATIMER. No, sir; we will have to expand somewhat, because up to date our funds have not permitted certain activities which will have to be carried on subsequently; but on the other hand, we have had an unusually large burden of annuity applications and the net change in the staff of the Board will be very small.

Mr. MAPES. I am a little curious to know how you set up the new organization. Were you at liberty to select any substantial percentage of these 800 employees without reference to civil-service requirements or the Classification Act?

Mr. LATIMER. In one category, only; we were permitted to take any appreciable number of temporary employees. That was in the group which dealt with adjudication of claims.

I think at one time we may have had as many as 300 temporary employees. As I say, that number is now smaller.

Mr. MAPES. How did you go about to find who were qualified and to select that personnel!

Mr. LATIMER. In the first place, that personnel was selected wholly from persons who had had railroad experience.

We had in our files two thousand or more applications from such persons. We had visiting the office a large number of railroad men who were seeking employment, and we attempted to pick out from that group of approximately two thousand applicants persons who had had the kind of experience which was relevant to the workthose who knew something about railroads, railroad records, seniority rules, and pay-roll procedure, and so on, all of which is a part of the adjudication of claims.

I might at this point say, too, at the time we started there was no roster of stenographers and we did engage a considerable number of stenographers. I believe almost without exception they were taken from the replacement list maintained by the W. P. A. people who had been in other governmental agencies, and none of them were engaged without a test as to their proficiency.

They have now all been replaced since the civil-service roster has become available within the last 4 months. We now have no such personnel.

Mr. MAPES. Would you feel that your work would be crippled in any way if additional employees were selected according to civilservice rules and regulations?

Mr. LATIMER. Generally speaking, no.

The CHAIRMAN. What was that answer?

Mr. LATIMER. Generally speaking, no. We do have this list of eligibles set up for us by the Civil Service Commission which is composed wholly of persons with railroad experience.

There are some, I should add to that, there are some cases where we have been looking for persons on the civil-service roster of a specialized character and have not been able to secure them.

I should add to that that the Civil Service Commission has submitted to us when we have so requested lists of persons who seemed. to them to be qualified, but we have not always found them so. Mr. MARTIN. I cannot hear you.

Mr. LATIMER. I say, the Civil Service Commission on such positions have submitted to us lists of persons who in their judgment are qualified, and they do maintain, rather I should say, they do have rosters of persons whom they think are qualified for certain positions we want to fill; but we have not been able to find the precise persons we wanted.

Mr. MARTIN. In the civil service?

Mr. LATIMER. In the civil service.

Mr. MAPES. Well, if you want a man with special training, they provide examinations for that? They hold examinations for that special type, do they not?

Mr. LATIMER. Yes, sir.

Mr. MARTIN. Mr. Chairman

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Martin.

Mr. MARTIN. Mr. Latimer, apparently this is about the way in which you got your present personnel.

There is a young man in the board from my home city, who spent about 15 years in a railway superintendent's office. He made out one of these applications, which was submitted to all of these applicants, and was selected and came down here and went to work."

Now, I have known his family intimately ever since he was born, but I did not even know he was after this place until after he was down here and working, and I do not think that anybody in my home city knew it but his family, and I am quite certain he had no influence whatever at work in Washington, either official or otherwise, to help him get this place. His application to you indicated that he was qualified and he was notified to come on.

I know that that is the way you got him, and I imagine that is the way you got most of them.

Mr. LATIMER. I think that is perfectly true.

Mr. MARTIN. But, he may have to get out down there for some fellow who can answer questions better, but would not know a thing in the world about what it is all about.

Mr. MAPES. There is not any reason why, if the man is qualified, he should not be able to pass the civil-service requirements, especially after he has had the training there, is there?

Mr. LATIMER. I should say, and I do not think the civil service will deny it, that a written examination is not always the best test of efficiency.

Mr. MAPES. I take it then that you are not in favor of the civil service for your Board?

Mr. LATIMER. I have not committed myself either way, sir.

Mr. MAPES. I am asking you. I know that you have not, but I am asking you.

Mr. KENNEY. Mr. Chairman

Mr. MAPES. I would like to get an answer to that.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Mapes is not quite through.

Mr. LATIMER. Yes; I am in favor of the civil service.

Mr. MAPES. Are you in favor of it applying to the employees of the Railroad Retirement Board?

Mr. LATIMER. I am in favor of the civil service applying to the Railroad Retirement Board with somewhat more freedom in the Board selecting its employees.

Mr. MAPES. Is it your attitude that it should apply to the other agencies. but not the one you are the head of?

Mr. LATIMER. There is not a great deal of difference to be drawn: but I should be in favor of somewhat more freedom on the part of the administrative agencies in selecting their personnel.

I may say that last summer I had the job of attempting to secure personnel for the Social Security Board

Mr. MAPES. Are you in favor of the recommendation of the Brownlow committee and the President's recommendation to Congress, that the civil service be extended upward, downward, and outward?

Mr. LATIMER. Oh, yes, sir; I am. I do not think that there is any conflict with what I have said and the recommendations.

Mr. MAPES. Their recommendations, as I understand, were that the employees of the Government, except the policy determining employees, be under the civil service.

Mr. LATIMER. Yes, sir; and all employees of the Railroad Retirement Board would be under the civil service. The only questions in my mind relate to the methods of selecting employees and their induction into the civil service.

Mr. MAPES. You do not want them selected according to the rules.

of the civil service, but after you have selected them, you think that they ought to be brought within the classified civil service; is that it? Mr. LATIMER. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. MAPES. That is a sort of a mongrel application of the civil service, is it not?

Mr. HAY. Give them the special training, before they are tried.

Mr. LATIMER. The question has been raised as to the inclusion here of a provision in the selection of the personnel of some such language as that in the act creating the Tennessee Valley Authority. There is much more to that provision than has been realized, too. It covers promotions as well as appointments.

Title 16, sec. 831e. The Code of the Laws of the United States of America:

Officers and employees; nonpolitical appointment; removal for violation. In the appointment of officials and the selection of employees for said corporation, and in the promotion of any such employees or officials, no political test or qualification shall be permitted or given consideration, but all such appointments and promotions shall be given and made on the basis of merit and efficiency. Any member of said Board who is found by the President of the United States to be guilty of a violation of this section shall be removed from office by the President of the United States, and any appointee of said Board who is found by the Board to be guilty of a violation of this section shall be removed from office by said Board. (May 18, 1933, c. 32, sec. 6, 48 Stat. 63.) Now, it seems to me you have there a provision which could be followed in the Retirement Board in the selection of personnel for the Railroad Retirement Board which it has been attempting to carry out to date, so far as it had power to make temporary appointments and that a provision of that character would give the administrative agencies some leeway without opening themselves up to the charge of having started a spoils system.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kenney would like to ask you a question. Mr. KENNEY. Mr. Latimer, I am interested in the eligible list of the Civil Service Commission which you referred to. That list has to do, I suppose, with certain given positions, to cover a certain line of duties.

Mr. LATIMER. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEY. Now, your work is comparatively new work, and involves special duties.

Mr. LATIMER. Yes, sir; that particular roster to which you have just referred covers the positions of adjudicators and other persons dealing with claims.

Mr. KENNEY. Now, would there not be difficulty in getting from the civil-service list a man qualified for all of the duties that you might want to assign him to under this new work?

Mr. LATIMER. You mean the claims work?

Mr. KENNEY. I mean a man experienced in all of the various phases of your work. Let me illustrate it.

Mr. LATIMER. Of course, in some respects it is difficult to get them in any way.

Mr. KENNEY. There was a surveyor in the Geological Survey. He was supposed to be a surveyor. Gradually he assumed new duties which had to do with electroplating. He became experienced in both and his assistant became experienced in both. He died. His assistant applied for his superior's position. He did not have a