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discussed this very problem you have raised, and we have agreed unless there is some unforeseeable reason we will follow the State board; that was the whole purpose of setting up State boards. We wanted their judgment, and we are going to follow their judgment unless there is some extraordinary reason why we should not.

Mr. STARNES. What would you term an extraordinary reason?

Mr. Fahy. Something that came to the attention of our Board but did not come to the attention of the State board, that they disk not have an opportunity to consider.

Mr. STARNES. Would'that refer to his political philosophy? Would that be an extraordinary reason?

Mr. Fahy. I think that might.
Mr. STARNES. It might be?

Mr. Fahy. It might be—if it was a bad philosophy under statutes, and it was unknown to the State board.

Mr. DIRKSEN. Mr. Fahy, if an applicant is not certified down here by the State board, that simply precludes him from entering the Government service?

Mr. Fahy. Yes; if we follow the plan we have in mind of following the recommendations of the State board.

Mr. STARNES. I draw the distinction, if the gentleman from Illinois (Mr. Dirksen) will permit, that they do not have to follow the State board unless they want tó. That is a procedure they have set up themselves. They can absolutely ignore the screening by the State board agency if they want to, in passing on the original list, or they can refuse to act favorably on it after they pass the screening by the State board, if they want to.

Mr. Fany. The only reason we did that is because we felt under the Executive order it was necessary that the board make the decision.

Mr. WOODRUM. But you expect, as a practical proposition, to follow the board's recommendation?

Mr. Fahy. Absolutely. That is the reason we set them up, and we would not impose upon these men and the great public service they render unless we intended to follow their recommendations.

Mr. DIRKSEN. Do you have a formula for the selection of State boards, or is it more or less just an arbitrary matter?

Mr. Fahy. We have this formula : We try, whenever we can, to get some member of the judiciary, at least; at least one practicing lawyer; then, on some of the boards, quite a number of the boards, a member of the law-teaching profession. We seek that kind of distribution generally, and we have gotten a great many jurists and a great many practicing lawyers on the boards, much more than any other class. I think that is true, is it not?

Mr. Fuchs. Yes; it is.
Mr. Fahy. That has been the policy of the board so far.
Mr. WOODRUM. Thank you, Mr. Fahy.


Is there anything else of the Civil Service Commission?

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I have just a few questions in reference to the Council of Personnel Administration. I see you have included an

item of $32,000 for the Council of Personnel Administration, which is a small set-up of 9 in number.

Mr. FLEMMING. Yes, sir.


Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. To what extent is that council responsible for the various training courses that are said to be going on in the various agencies and departments of the Government at this time?

Mr. FLEMMING. The council, Congressman Wigglesworth, does have a committee on training that is made up of 4 to 6 members of the council, and they do help and assist the departments in the development of any training programs the departments feel are necessary. These programs are needed in these days, in view of the fact that a good many of the persons that are recruited are not fully qualified, and need additional training after they get into the departments.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Does the council or the Civil Service Commission pass on the training courses to be given, or on what shall be given in the courses?

Mr. FLEMMING. No; we do not. The Commission's whole approach to the training problem has simply been that we would render a staff assistance to the departments that found it necessary to develop training courses. We help them but do not exercise any jurisdiction over

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Could you indicate for the record the agencies in which courses are being given, and what courses are being given?

Mr. FLEMMING. Congressman, I suspect that would be pretty difficult. There are a good many training programs going on within the departments, but they would not all be included under the designation "courses."

For example, supervisors meet after hours for the purpose of learning how to do a more intelligent supervisory job.

Frankly, therefore, there is not available any place a complete list of those programs; but I will be glad to have as good a sample as we can bring together brought together for the record. I think our Training Division has some information along that line. I assume you would not want us to send a questionnaire out to the Departments for Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. No. I want to know generally what departments have training courses in effect, and what they teach in those

their programs.




Mr. FLEMMING. We will let you have that. (Nore.--The information requested has been filed with the committee.)

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Does the Commission give any credit to a person passing any of those courses, for appointment in the classified service! Mr. FLEMMING. No; that does not enter into it at all.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. It has been stated to me that the Department of Agriculture gives a course and that credit is given in respect to that

Mr. FLEMMING. The Department of Agriculture has an after-hour program that is operated under the graduate school of the Department, which is quite different from anything that goes on in any of the other


departments. It is open to all people in the Government on payment of a small fee.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Do you give credit to the graduates of that course?

Mr. FLEMMING. Let us assume that, in order to qualify for a particular position, a person must have had a certain number of hours in the field of chemistry. If he had taken that number of hours in chemistry in the Department of Agriculture's Graduate School, we would recognize that as fulfilling the requirement; that is true.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. You say these courses are, for the most part, for the lesser paid personnel?

Mr. FLEMMING. Not necessarily.
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. It applies to the supervisory personnel as well!

Mr. FLEMMING. That is right. Those courses, of course, that are carried on in the departments generally, are not courses that the individual has to pay anything for.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Who is Mr. C. R. Dooley, Director of Training Within Industry?

Mr. FLEMMING. Mr. Dooley is director of the training within industry program in the Training Bureau of the War Manpower Commission.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH, Of the War Manpower Commission?
Mr. FLEMMING. That is right.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Who is the director of vocational training for defense workers?

Mr. FLEMMING. You are referring to Mr. Hawkins?
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I am referring to Mr. Hawkins; yes.

Mr. FLEMMING. He is also in the Bureau of Training of the War Manpower Commission.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Would that training be supervised or authorized in any way by the Council on Personnel Administration or the Civil Service Commission?

Mr. FLEMMING. No; they do not have anything to do with it. Those are programs carried on primarily for industry.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I have a card here headed, "Training Within Industry, Vocational Education.” It says, “This certifies that

has satisfactorily completed his training as a war production job instructor, and so forth, and it is signed by those two gentlemen. The gentleman in question happens to be a supervisory official in an agency which has nothing to do with war production.

Mr. FLEMMING. Some of the departments of the Federal Government have become very much interested in the program which Mr. Dooley has developed for industry, and some of their people have participated in that training program. I suspect that that is what has happened in this particular instance.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Is there tuition charged for these courses?
Mr. FLEMMING. No, sir.
Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Who conducts them?
Mr. FLEMMING. People from Dooley's staff.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Is that a volunteer service or are they paid out of War Manpower funds?

de Give Mr. FLEMMING. He has two types of employees. Those who are

full-time paid employees, and he also has a great many people from to thw industry who volunteer their services in the carrying out of this

Training-Within-Industry program. rder to get

I might say that I have had some acquaintance with this program mtance, and I feel that it is one of the most outstanding programs that has

been developed in connection with the war program. They are doing

Winete sa grand job


Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Do you know of any training courses conducted in colleges which are paid for out of defense funds

Mr. FLEMMING. Yes. There is a definite program authorized by the Congress, with the funds appropriated by the Congress. It is carried on by the Office of Education and the War Manpower Commission.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Are you responsible in any way for that?
Mr. FLEMMING. No, sir.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. The Council for Personnel Administration has nothing to do with it!

Mr. FLEMMING. No. * Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Are you in a position to give us a table which

would show the increase in those doing personnel work, by department and agency, since the Council was set up!

Mr. FLEMMING. We would have to make a survey to do that. We would have to send out a questionnaire in order to get the inforination.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Never mind, then, if you do not have it in the
Mr. FLEMMING. We do not have it in our files.
Mr. WOODRUM. Obviously the number has increased on account of
the great increase in the number of people employed, and in the turn-
over. If there is nothing further, thank you very much, lady and




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Mr. FITZPATRICK. We will take up the National Housing Agency.
Mr. Blandford, will you give us a general statement at this time

Mr. BLANDFORD. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, we have attempted to make available to the committee members a considerable amount of detail about our operations in the book that you have before you. Perhaps we have erred on the side of providing too much information.

This is the first time that the National Housing Agency has had the opportunity to appear before this subcommittee and perhaps the first time that the committee has had an opportunity in this way to get an over-all picture of the housing agencies and housing activities of the Federal Government.

I thought it might be helpful to give you this general picture very quickly, as well as the high lights of our operations. As you will recall

, on February 24, 1942, the President, by Executive order under his war powers, consolidated some sixteen-odd agencies and administrative units into the National Housing Agency. As set up, the National Housing Agency consists of the office of the Administrator and three constituent units.

In the book that you have before you, on page 2, is an organization chart which, I think, gives the general picture.


The Administrator's office is concerned primarily with general policy and supervision, provision of certain central services, and particularly the job of programing war housing.

The three constituents perform activities with which I think the committee is generally familiar, certainly in terms of their peacetime operations.


In the first constituent, we have the Federal Home Loan Bank System, which contains some three-thousand-eight-hundred-odd member institutions with assets of $5,600,000,000, and with some 7,000,000 citizens involved either as investors or as borrowers. There is next the Federal Savings and Loan Insurance Corporation, which insures some 2,300 institutions with assets of about $3,500,000,000. In addition, there is the Home Owners' Loan Corporation, with some 800,000 active accounts as of July 1, 1942, and something less as of today.


The Federal Housing Administration, the second constituent unit, as you perhaps remember, has insured from the start loans approaching $6,300,000,000. And it has outstanding insured loans and mortgages at the present time of about $3,800,000,000.


The Federal Public Housing Authority, the third constituent unit, in terms of its traditional program, has some $500,000,000 of sum clearance low-rent housing projects built under the United States Housing Act, for which it has a continuing responsibility.

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