Mr. FAHY. Because he at least has to pass a noncompetitive examination.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. How long has that been in force?

Mr. FAHY. That has been in force since the summer of 1941.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Because I know in the Federal Communications Commission, where he graduated in June from Harvard, was admitted to the bar in August, and got a $4,600 position in September, and he had never appeared in court.

Mr. STARNES. Maybe he had the right social and economic views! Mr. FUCHS. That could not happen today.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. I think that a man with good legal experience, where there is not any question about his ability as an attorney, would not be able to meet some of the questions you would put in your examinations.

Mr. FAHY. Well, he is not required to be perfect in them, of course. Mr. FITZPATRICK. A young fellow coming out of college, just out, and who has never been into court, could probably answer those questions.

Mr. FAHY. I think the question is more easily answered by one who has recently been in college, but the examinations are fair. I think myself it would be more difficult for me to take a law-school examination now, but I still think, notwithstanding that, I could fill certain positions in the Government competently.

Mr. WOODRUM. Do you have one of your forms of examination to present to the committee?

Mr. FUCHS. Yes, sir; we do; and I would suggest in that connection, if the committee is willing, that it be not placed in the record, although we would like to make it fully available to the committee. Mr. WOODRUM. Yes. Is that examination changed from time to time?

Mr. Fuchs. It is changed each year, or each time it is given; but it will be along the same general lines each time.

Mr. STARNES. One of your troubles, I imagine, or one of the problems with reference to the examinations given, is they are probably prepared by college professors who have had no practical experience, and college boys receiving that type of training or instruction are better prepared to pass the examination than the average lawyer because the questions are right in line with their training.

Mr. FAHY. I think generally speaking that is true, but I would like to emphasize this as one result of this examination and the way we conducted it and the way we advertised it, that, curiously enough, some of the top marks were obtained by people who had been out of school for some years and some of whom had never been to law schools, and scattered throughout the country, and those people now will get Government positions; whereas, under the old scheme, they just would not have been employed.

Mr. STARNES. What is involved, Mr. Fahy, in this noncompetitive examination?

He

Mr. FAHY. It is a review of the paper record of the man. must fill out a rather elaborate application, showing what he has been doing with himself, where he has practiced, who his employers have been, whom he has been associated with the usual thing in a rather comprehensive application; what he has been earning and,

in addition, he must take an oral examination. When I say “oral examination," that is true; it is an oral appraisal of him on questions and answers orally given.

Mr. STARNES. Who gives that--these State groups?

Mr. FAHY. No; the State groups give it for those who get on the register. For those who have been appointed aside from the register, we have established State committees where the men were not available in Washington. For those who have come to Washington, we use lawyers primarily here in the Government service, three on each committee, in the presence, at the invitation of the Board, of the appointing officer, if he desires to be present, or some representative from the agency. Then, if the man fails, he has a right of appeal to the Board. There have only been 30 appeals and 15 reexaminations were authorized.

Mr. STARNES. Who has been giving the examinations here in Washington? I am more concerned about what goes on in Washington than I am out through the country. Very frankly, I have a little bit more fearful regard of what goes on here in Washington in some of the departments than I have about what goes on throughout the country.

Mr. FUCHS. There is a list here of the Washington examiners.
Mr. FITZPATRICK. What is the time of the examination?
Mr. FAHY. The written examination is a 6-hour examination.
Mr. FITZPATRICK. They have to complete it in 6 hours?

Mr. FAHY. Yes; now we are endeavoring to improve the legal appointments.

Mr. WOODRUM. He had to take all four of those periods of examination?

Mr. FUCHS. Yes; the four periods. The first and last which were the general part, occupied 2 hours' time. The 4 hours which the other two parts occupy were devoted to legal questions.

Mr. WOODRUM. How many of the 13,000 made that grade?

Mr. FUCHS. There were 5,061 who made that grade which we established as the minimum grade. Some additional to those were sent oral examinations, because their professional records, as reflected in their applications, gave ground to believe they might qualify and they were not too far below the minimum grade.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. What was the passing percentage of the examination?

Mr. FUCHS. Approximately 67.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. How many of them made over 67?

Mr. FUCHS. About 40 percent; a little under 40 percent.

Mr. FAHY. Now, I want to say this about the work of the Board in general. I think what Mr. Flemming said is true, about the confidence the Board has created among those who come in contact with its work. I attribute a great deal of that to the voluntary cooperation of so many men throughout the country, without any pay. Of course, if they have travel expenses, it is paid. They are eminent men, members of the Bar and of the judiciary, busy men who have become intensely interested in helping the Government carry out this kind of program. And the Civil Service Commission has been very efficiently handling the part of it which falls to it in connection with examinations that were held all over the country.

There is also the very hard working small staff of the Board, plus the membership of the Board. The Board members all have other positions in the Government, that is, the Government members; but they have all taken a very great interest in the work of the Board and must do its work in addition to their other responsibilities. That is true, too, the members of the Board from the legal profession. Mr. Wickser of Buffalo, who is closely identified with similar work in the State of New York and is a practicing attorney in Buffalo; Mr. Marion Smith, one of the most competent and I suppose busiest attorneys in the Southeast, who has taken a great personal interest in the Board, and Mr. Armstrong of Memphis. Then there is Mr. Hays, of Columbia, and Dean Van Hecke of the University of North Carolina from outside the Government, from the teaching profession.

Now, the Board is trying to do what the purpose of the Executive order and the Reed committee report contemplated, that is, to do a common sense and intelligent job with respect to the employment of lawyers in the Government service who will obtain a civil-service status. We have no feeling at all that we know it all; we are just working at a job the best way we can, and learning as we go along. Mr. WOODRUM. You do not require physicians to take a brokendown medical examination before they get on the civil-service register, do you?

Mr. FLEMMING. That would depend on the category. I mean it would depend on the salary classification. As far as our P-1 medical jobs are concerned

Mr. WOODRUM. If he is a graduate of a reputable medical school and has had certain experience in hospitals serving an interneship, and is of good moral character and has passed the examination, you put him on the register?

Mr. FLEMMING. Oh, yes.

Mr. WOODRUM. Why should you treat lawyers any differently? Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. That is only a matter of present policy, is it not?

Mr. FAHY. That is a matter of policy.

Mr. WOODRUM. I am thoroughly sympathetic with the fact you ought to have some sort of screening process to see that men who come into legal positions are not political henchmen and just yanked in there because they are able to deliver a few votes to somebody; but it seems to me in the beginning of this thing you are belaboring too much and magnifying too much the necessity of taking a brokendown examination on theory, on principles that really is not necessary or I wonder if it is necessary?

Mr. FAHY. If it is necessary, I do not know. I think probably it is an improvement. Now, it is not simply that the man is able to obtain a Government position without the necessity of this kind of an examination, it is a question of what system are you going to use to give the appointing officers the benefit of a choice among a large group.

Now, the Eastern States, for example, have a great advantage over the other States, because a man can come here, interview the appointing officer, and he can get the job through a personal interview. This reaches out and makes available to the appointing officer those who are not available to him in Washington.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. The men who take these positions, are they supposed to be the starting stone of career men?

Mr. FAHY. That is right.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Then, in the matter of a short period they are going to step up to higher positions!

Mr. FAHY. Oh, yes; they may.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. So it eliminates that man now who has been practicing, as our chairman said, for many years, from becoming a career man in the service of the Government?

Mr. FAHY. No. They can come in; they are eligible; if they have had experience of 3 years, or more, they are eligible for positions over and above the register.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Well, if they have had experience, they are going to step up as career men and take over all of these other positions? Mr. FAHY. Presumably.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. That is the object of it-the making of career men out of them?

Mr. FAHY. That is right. It is a merit system.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. It is a merit system?

Mr. FAHY. Yes. But anyone can still be appointed.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Yes; but assuming this was in force for 6, 7, or 8 years, they would be more likely to pick men from your register than they would men who could step right in, who had been practicing law?

Mr. FAHY. From the lower grades, yes, that is true; but the men who are coming along in the future will get on the register.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Yes; but at the present time lawyers who have been out practicing for years, and years, and years could not make that list; so, as far as making career men of them, they are out of the picture?

Mr. FAHY. Many of them did make it who took the examination, and will be on the register, throughout all the country.

Mr. FLEMMING. And they may qualify them for the higher grade without taking the examination, if they had more than 3 years of practice.

Mr. FAHY. They may now be appointed to the higher grade, and at least they have the opportunity furnished by a register.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. I have been sympathetic with this idea, but when I heard about that examination, it raised a question in my mind. Mr. DIRKSEN. By "3 years of practice" you mean what?

Mr. FAHY. Actual working at law, as distinct from something else. Mr. DIRKSEN. Do you weight that-describe that by volume?

Mr. FAHY. No, sir. If he has been active at law, instead of at some other work, like some man who passes through law school but does not go into the profession, just getting the benefit of the education and going into business, if he has actually followed a legal career in some capacity.

BACKGROUND OF MEMBERS OF BOARD OF LEGAL EXAMINERS

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Would you furnish for the record, Mr. Fahy, a list of the names of the present members and the small staff you refer to?

Mr. FAHY. Yes.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. And give us a statement as to the background and experience of any new members, in either capacity? (The statement referred to is as follows:)

BOARD OF LEGAL EXAMINERS-PROFESSIONAL STAFF (IN ADDITION TO EXECUTIVE SECRETARY) AS OF JANUARY 1, 1943

Shelden D. Elliott.-Age 37; member, California Bar; A. B., Yale University. J. D., LL. M., University of Southern California. Assistant Counsel, Legislative Counsel Bureau of California, 1932-33. Secretary, Committee of Bar Examiners of California, 1933-34. Assistant Professor, Associate Professor, and Professor of Law, University of Southern California, 1934–37; director of Legal Aid Clinic, 1934-37. Senior Review and Negotiations Officer, Administrative and Management Placement Section, United States Civil Service Commission, 1942.

Henry Weihofen.-Age 39; member, Illinois Bar; Ph. B., J. D., J. S. D., University of Chicago. Practice in Chicago, 1931-32. Instructor, Assistant Professor, Associate Professor and Professor of Law, University of Colorado, 1932-present. Special Assistant to the Attorney General and Associate Editor, Attorney General's survey of Release Procedures, 1937-38. Author, Insanity as a Defense in Criminal Law.

Hiram H. Lesar.-Age 31; member, Illinois Bar; A. B., J. D., University of Illinois. J. S. D., Yale University. Assistant Professor, and Associate Professor of Law, University of Kansas, 1937-present.

James W. Pratt.-Age 24 member, California Bar; A. B., LL. B., University of California, Berkeley. Senior Personnel Research Assistant, United States Civil Service Commission, 1940-42.

Mr. FAHY. I will. Could I leave with the committee a prepared statement which includes a part of what you want?

Mr. WOODRUM. Yes.

Mr. WOODRUM (continuing). Is there anything else on the Board of Legal Examiners?

Mr. STARNES. Just one thing: After you have had this screening process by your State boards, what happens to the applicants?

Mr. FAHY. They are approved for the register by the Board here. The State board sends in its recommendations on the ones from that State and the Board here then has the technical say as to putting them on the register; but we have taken the position that unless there is some extraordinary reason we will follow the recommendation of the State board. The State board really is going to control that.

Mr. STARNES. Have you had cause yet or reason to reject any of the suggestions of the State board?

Mr. FAHY. NO. The register has not actually been set up yet.

Mr. STARNES. I understand that.

Mr. FAHY. So that there is still the opportunity.

Mr. STARNES. The question of the final passage upon the character, and so forth, of the applicant and as to whether he should go on the register rests, of course, with the Board of Legal Examiners here in Washington?

Mr. FAHY. It does technically, actually it does not.

Mr. STARNES. Are you required, unless you so desire, to rely upon this list of the State screening boards?

Mr. FAHY. I think as a matter of law we are not.

Mr. STARNES. Of course, there is no law; it is all regulation.

Mr. FAHY. That is what I mean.

Mr. STARNES. It rests entirely in the discretion of the Board of Examiners as to what they shall do, as to what is their attitude? Mr. FAHY. We have reserved the right to reject, but we have also

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