Mr. WOODRUM. Will you make a brief statement concerning these laboratories?

Dr. LEWIS. The Ames Laboratory during the past year has been put into operation. The equipment now consists of three wind tunnels, a flight research laboratory, and the necessary shops and other facilities. We want to put that laboratory on a two- or three-shift basis.

The problems being studied are in general the same as at Langley only on different designs. Ames Laboratory has new and up-to-date research facilities near the west coast aircraft industry and these new facilities are very much appreciated by the Army, the Navy, and the aircraft industry. An Army liaison office has been established there. In order to carry out efficiently and quickly the requests of the Army and Navy we are asking an increase of 334 personnel.

Mr. DIRKSEN. Does the work there differ from that in the other laboratories?

Dr. LEWIS. Yes; to some extent. The wind tunnels at Ames operate at higher speeds and with lower turbulence. Very high-speed investigations are conducted at Ames.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. This laboratory will be completed in the fiscal year 1944?

Dr. LEWIS. Yes; as so far projected.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. With the amount requested for construction purposes?

Dr. LEWIS. That is right.

Mr. WOODRUM. Now, a word about the Cleveland laboratory. Dr. LEWIS. With respect to that laboratory we have tried our hardest to complete that laboratory within the last calendar year. We have not been able to do so, but it is in partial operation and will be completed soon, and we hope to have it in full operation in a few months.

We have transferred the power plant research engineering group at Langley Field to Cleveland. There are 597 there at the present

81710-43-10

time, and when the laboratory is completed and in full operation it will require an increase of 853.

Mr. WOODRUM. That is for engine testing?

Dr. LEWIS. That is for the engine-research laboratory.

Mr. WOODRUM. Something that is very badly needed?

Dr. LEWIS. It is very badly needed. We have something like 50 research projects on the program.

INCREASE IN GENERAL EXPENSES

Mr. WOODRUM. In the item of other expenses the corresponding increase is on account of bringing in these new facilities?

Dr. LEWIS. We have asked for an increase, Mr. Chairman, in the items of travel, transportation, communication, and utilities.

At the Ames Laboratory the general expenses will go up because of the increased use of the completed wind tunnels which will increase the cost of electricity, and will bring up the cost of service.

TRAVEL EXPENSES

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Why the enormous increase in the travel item, Dr. Lewis?

Dr. LEWIS. One reason for the increase is the very close cooperation which we have with the Army and the Navy on research projects. There is a continual demand for N. A. C. A. personnel to attend conferences at Army and Navy stations or to confer with engineers in the aircraft industry. In many cases it is much better to confer directly with the Army or Navy on research projects; it is the quickest way to get things done, and we have had to ask for increased travel to meet that need.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. A 100-percent increase?

Mr. VICTORY. I would like to add a word there, Mr. Wigglesworth, that it is not an increase of 100 percent, as it appears because there has already been approved by the Bureau of the Budget an item, which will come before your committee in a few days in the form of a supplemental estimate for travel allowance for the current fiscal year, in the amount of $39,328, which when added to the current appropriation of $58,541, will make the increase requested for the fiscal year 1944, over the total amount required for 1943 the difference between $118.750 requested for 1944 and $97,869, the present estimated total for 1943.

I might say the reason for that increase, in addition to what Dr. Lewis has said, comes about in this way: The Committee had a travel budget of around $67,000 for 1942, and the Congress made a blanket cut of 10 percent last year at a time when we were growing. And we have had to cancel during the first 6 months of the present fiscal year 24 meetings of subcommittees because of lack of travel funds.

We are asking the Budget to allow us enough for the balance of this year so we will not have to cancel any meetings for the last half of the current fiscal year, and they have agreed upon an estimate for the following year based upon not canceling any scheduled committee meetings. That is why we would like to have the increase.

Mr. DIRKSEN. Let me ask you, what percentage of that is air travel and what by train?

Mr. VICTORY. For long-distance travel, it is air travel; otherwise, it is train travel.

Mr. DIRKSEN. Would it not be economical for the Committee to own a couple of passenger planes like those DC-3's, to haul 21 passengers, or even if they hauled only 10 or 12 passengers?

Mr. VICTORY. We do not have a great volume of transportation, Mr. Dirksen.

Mr. DIRKSEN. I thought it was when they felt the need to travel from one place to another.

Mr. VICTORY. No; it is to subcommittee meetings. We have twohundred-and-fifty-odd subcommittee members, and the members attend about 30 separate committees. They travel from different parts of the country. There would be nothing gained by trying to furnish Government-operated air transportation for personnel so widely

scattered.

FUTURE EXPANSION OF PERSONNEL

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. What do you envision in the look-ahead in terms of personnel? Are we about up to the peak of our activity in that connection?

Dr. LEWIS. You mean in aeronautical research in general, Mr. Wigglesworth?

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. Well, you are asking for a total force here of

4,410.

Dr. LEWIS. That is right.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. As compared with 2,693 in the present fiscal year. What do you look forward to?

Dr. LEWIS. I wish I could give you a good answer to that question. Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. I mean on the basis of present plans?

Dr. LEWIS. Well, I am not optimistic about an early ending of the war and we have tried to lay down a program in line with the Army and Navy programs, and they are laid down for a number of years in advance. Now, these estimates we have presented are based largely on our experience during the present fiscal year, with what we know is coming along and what is projected, and the requests for research that have been made to the Committee, by the Army and Navy. I do not know, frankly, what to say in answering your question as to what we can expect in personnel expansion in the next 2 or 3 years.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. On the basis of present plans, is there likely to be further expansion in personnel?

Dr. LEWIS. Unless we expand our facilities, I do not see any considerable further expansion; no. We are not asking for any new facilities in this budget with the exception of the small gust tunnel.

Mr. VICTORY. May I add, Mr. Wigglesworth, that the expansion indicated by comparison of the 1943 appropriation with the 1944 estimates will be somewhat softened by favorable action, if you give it, on the supplemental estimates I referred to before, that will come before you shortly, in which the Bureau of the Budget has indicated its approval of additional personnel for Langley Field Laboratory, of 507; Ames Laboratory, 100; and the Cleveland Laboratory, 566, which we will begin putting on as soon as approval is given.

AVAILABILITY OF EXPERIENCED PERSONNEL

Mr. DIRKSEN. May I ask at that point: What about the availability of men who have sufficient background and experience now? I see you are going to ask for additional persons in grade 1, professional service, at $2,000 to $2,600, and assistant engineers, and associate engineers, and engineers in grade 4. Are men with aviation background available in such numbers?

Dr. LEWIS. Yes. We have been very fortunate. The committee has accepted applications from about 400 engineers who will report for duty between February and June, all aeronautical engineers. They are anxious to get into research work.

CHANGES OF LANGUAGE

Mr. WOODRUM. I would like to ask, Doctor, a few questions about the language there. There are quite a number of changes, some of which are for the purpose of eliminating unnecessary wording, some of which may be changes in substance.

Mr. VICTORY. The real reason for most of those changes is that the Bureau of the Budget desired to rewrite our appropriation language so as to make it accord with the appropriation language of other agencies.

Mr. WOODRUM. It does not change your authority?

Mr. VICTORY. It does not change the substance or meaning at all. I do not think there is a really material change in the language.

LIMITATION ON TRAVEL EXPENSE

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. How about striking out the limitation on travel?

Mr. VICTORY. It should be stricken out. The limitation first appeared in the 1943 appropriation and has operated greatly to our disadvantage, and I think to the disadvantage of the national interests, in that it has so far this fiscal year prevented the calling of a number of subcommittee meetings, with the resulting effect of delaying progress in the solution of new problems in the aircraft program. With the approval of the Bureau of the Budget, it is recommended that it be eliminated. Frankly, we are confronted with expanding activities and the limitation is a handicap and unnecessary, as we are economical in our travel anyhow.

Mr. WOODRUM. Could not you set a figure and put it in there, that would not cramp you?

Mr. VICTORY. Yes; we could. If you would like to have a limitation, we would suggest as a limitation the figure stated in the estimates. Mr. WOODRUM. If we have to put a limitation in there, what would you suggest that it be?

Mr. VICTORY. $118,750.

There is one other change that is absolutely new language

PURCHASE AND MAINTENANCE OF CAFETERIA EQUIPMENT

Mr. WOODRUM. Before you get to that, you have down here "Purchase and maintenance of cafeteria equipment." You do not need that now; do you?

Mr. VICTORY. We do need to buy a little bit now and then.

OVERTIME PAY

Mr. CASE. On page 14 of the statement I notice you refer to overtime statutes and say, "The committee's present overtime law expires June 30, 1943." Do you have a separate and distinct statute which makes your overtime compensation on a different basis from that of other Government branches as affected by the recent Compensation Act that was passed?

Mr. VICTORY. We had a special temporary statute expiring June 30, 1943, which was repealed by the general overtime act approved December 21, last.

Mr. CASE. So that you are now preparing Budget estimates for what overtime?

Mr. VICTORY. On the same basis as the other agencies of the Government for the period subsequent to December 1, 1942, plus the cost of overtime payments made during the fiscal year 1943 up to December 1, 1942.

Mr. WIGGLESWORTH. This request does not include overtime?
Mr. VICTORY. No, sir.

TEMPORARY EMPLOYMENT OF CONSULTANTS

Mr. WOODRUM. Now, this language for temporary employment of consultants, on page 224 of the committee print; tell us something about that new language.

Mr. VICTORY. That language is

not to exceed $2,500 for temporary employment of consultants, at not to exceed $50 per diem, by contract or otherwise, without regard to the civil service and classification laws.

The main Committee has felt the need from time to time of drawing into its service, in an advisory, consulting capacity, for 1 or 2 days, some outstanding consulting engineer on a special problem. Under our existing law, all we can do is to offer such a man an appointment as a member of a subcommittee for a meeting, but it usually is not a meeting that we want him to attend; we want him to come to Washington for a conference. So it is not strictly a correct procedure to appoint him as a member of a committee, and, if we appoint him a member of a committee, we can pay him nothing. If he is in a position to serve for nothing, well and good; but, if he is not, then we cannot engage him unless we have this authority of law.

Mr. WOODRUM. And you are asking for that authority?

Mr. VICTORY. We are asking for a very small limitation of $2,500 and, frankly, it may not be used at all.