port those rules by to-morrow morning. I think, sir, there ought to be two committees, as was first proposed. If any gentleman will offer a resolution that a committee of nine or eleven be appointed to prepare and report to-morrow what standing committees are necessary for the regulation of this body I would vote for it, and then I would vote for a separate committee to prepare rules for the government of this body.

Mr. DARLINGTON. I refer the gentleman to the Debates of the Convention, where the report of the committee was made, providing, among other things, for certain standing committees. On another page of the Debates he will find that the number is fixed at nine for each committee. On pages 30 and 31, of the first volume of the Debates, will be found the names of the standing committees. All this is embraced in the report of the Committee on Rules, and all of which will come before the Committee on Rules here. Mr. KAINE. Do I understand the gentleman to say that that report and the rules are to be found at that place in the Debates?

Mr. DARLINGTON. They will be found in the report of the committee. You will find that the number was fixed at nine.

Mr. KAINE. I am very well aware of that. On page 31 you will find that the rules for the government of the Convention were ordered to be printed; I asked the gentleman, and I ask him now, and would be glad if he would point to the page' anywhere in the Journals where those rules are printed; I undertake to say they were never published, either in the debates or in the Journal, seriatim; I suppose by hunting through, from page to page, they can be found; but, if you can get a copy of the rules as they were ordered to be printed, of course they were complete.

Now, sir, I repeat, that I think there ought to be two committees—a committee to say what standing committees are necessary for this body, and a committee to prepare rules for its government.

Mr. DARLINGTON. That is my motion.

Mr. JOHN PRICE WETHERILL. derstand you want two committees? Mr. DARLINGTON. No, sir.

Mr. JOHN PRICE WETHERILL. I favor your idea.

I un

Then

It has been said that it will take a great deal of time to prepare rules. I contend that the rules governing other bodies similarly constituted will govern ours, and that they can be prepared with little or no amendment, and that a committee of seven, therefore, can, in a little time, give us just what rules we want; but the important part of the matter in my mind is, that we, by passing this resolution, commit this Convention to standing committees, and not to one committee. It was suggested by a gentleman from Philadelphia yesterday that perhaps it would be just as well for us to form one large committee, and give the duties of the committee work of this Convention to that committee. I oppose any such proposition as that, and I am glad this resolution is offered, because it commits the work of this Convention to several stand

ing committees, and I hope that will prevail. I hope the committees will be so large that a place will be found on some of them for every member of this Convention, and for that reason I hope the resolution offered by the gentleman from Philadelphia (Mr. Newlin) will

pass.

Mr. HARRY WHITE. Mr. President: It occurs to me that this raises a very ordinary question of parliamentary law, and to avoid confusion let us see where we are

for a moment. The gentleman from Philadelphia (Mr. Newlin) offered a resolution that a committee be appointed to report the number of standing committees necessary for the business of this body. The gentleman from Philadelphia (Mr. Cassidy) offered an amendment providing for rules for the government of this body; that was accepted, and that is the resolution now of the gentleman from Philadelphia (Mr. Newlin) who first offered it, and that the number be increased to fifteen. Then the gentleman from Chester (Mr. Darlington) offers an amendment that a committee be appointed to report rules for this body. Now, the Convention will observe, that this is accomplishing the same result in different ways. The resolution first offered, and upon the Clerk's desk, contemplates as part of the duty of the committee that rules be re

ported. The gentleman's resolution is simply the resolution of the gentleman following; simply that they are to name the number of the committees. It seems to me we ought to avoid confusion by taking up the resolution of the gentleman from Philadelphia (Mr. Newlin.) It is the experience of every gentleman who is at all familiar with the rules governing legislative bodies, that the rules of the body indicate the number and character of the committees, and the manner of their appointment. Take up our rules in Congress; you will observe that that provision prevails there. Take up the rules of either branch of the Legislature, and you will observe that the names of the committees are mentioned seriatim and embodied in the rules. It seems to me if you have two committees a committee on rules and a committee on the number of committees it will occasion confusion. One committee, it seems to me, ought to be empowered to report a series of rules, and let it be understood as the duty of that committee to report the number of committees also. If you want a precedent, the rules of the Convention of 1837 indicate the number of the standing committees of that body, and, if I mistake not, the committees were appointed accordingly. Refer to the Debates of the Illinois Convention, and you will discover the same thing; the Committee on Rules reported also the number of committees. I know the distinguished gentleman from Chester (Mr. Darlington) will see, if he reflects a moment, that this is just about the same thing as proposed by the member from Philadelphia (Mr. Newlin.) I trust, therefore, the resotion first offered will be considered by the Convention, and not the amendment.

Mr. DARLINGTON. Mr. President: I wish it perfectly understood, that in any motion I make I am for the same thing, if I understand it as the gentleman who offered the resolution. The precedent I followed, however, is the precedent adopted by the former Convention, when Judge Champneys, chairman of the committee, proposed the same resolution. I care not how it is done. I do not want one com mittee; I want a dozen of them.

The amendment was not agreed to. Mr. LANDIS moved to amend, by striking out the word "one," and inserting in lieu thereof the word "two."

The amendment was agreed to, and the resolution as amended was adopted.

SESSIONS TO BE OPENED WITH PRAYER.

Mr. M'ALLISTER offered the following resolution, which was twice read:

Resolved, That the President of the Convention invite the clergy of the city of Harrisburg, by an arrangement among themselves, to open the sessions each morning with prayer.

Mr. LILLY moved to amend, by adding "during its sessions in Harrisburg." The amendment was accepted. Mr. CAMPBELL moved to strike out the words "by an arrangement among themselves."

The motion was not seconded.

Mr. LANDIS. I move to amend, by striking out all after the word "resolved,” and inserting in lieu thereof the following:

"That the President of the Convention be requested to invite a minister of the city to open the sessions of the Convention daily with prayer."

That will apply as well to Philadelphia as Harrisburg.

Mr. MACVEAGH. That is copied almost verbatim from the resolution of 1837, and is in the language of the usual resolution on such occasions.

Mr. CASSIDY. I would suggest to the gentleman who offered the amendment to strike out the word "minister" and insert "clergyman," because it might be open

The original resolution, as modified, was then adopted.

It was ordered that Messrs. Newlin, Woodward, Darlington, Hopkins, Turrell, Black, (York,) Armstrong, Kaine, S. A.

Catholic priests and the Jewish Rabbi.
Mr. LANDIS. I accept that.
Mr. BOYD moved to amend the amend-
ment, by adding the following words:

"And that no compensation be allowed for such services."

.

Mr. COCHRAN. Mr. President: I hope that in inviting the clergymen to open the sessions of this Convention with prayer we will not introduce the subject of compensation into the resolution at all. It would be a very uncourteous thing, even for us, to indicate a suspicion that those distinguished gentlemen would want compensation for their services. I hope the amendment will not be adopted, but that we will leave the question open. Mr. Boyd. It was because I had such suspicion that I offered the amendment. Mr. SIMPSON, Mr. President: I would suggest to my friend from Montgomery (Mr. Boyd) that he had better insert the word "pecuniary" before the word "compensation," because the Lord may allow them compensation.

The amendment to the amendment was not agreed to, and the amendment was not agreed to.

The resolution was then adopted. REPORTING AND

PUBLISHING OF THE

PROCEEDINGS.

Mr. HARRY WHITE offered the followMr. HARRY WHITE offered the following resolution, which was twice read

Resolved, That a committee of seven be appointed to contract for the reporting and publishing of the proceedings of this Convention, and to report such contract to the Convention for its action thereon.

Mr. MacVEAGH moved to amend, by striking out all after the word "resolved," and inserting in lieu thereof the following:

"That a committee of nine be appointed to take into consideration all methods which may be presented to them for the reporting and printing of the proceedings of this Convention, and to report to the Convention the method which, in their judgment, is most likely to secure efficiency and economy in such publication."

Mr. HARRY WHITE. Mr. President: One word of explanation as to the original resolution and the amendment offered by the gentleman from Dauphin (Mr. Mac Veagh.) I cannot say that I am particular which resolution, the original or the amendment offered by the gentleman from Dauphin, is adopted. Either one of them will comprehend the object I have in view. The Convention will observe that the language of the original resolution is for the appointment of a commit tee to contract for the reporting and printing of the proceedings, and to report such contract to the Convention for its action. This is a comprehensive resolu

tion. You appoint your committee; that committee is clothed with the power to fully negotiate and report to this body a contract, not empowering them, however, to conclude any contract to bind this body, but to devise such ways and means, and to embody those ways and means in a contract which will best effect the ends in view.

Mr. MACVEAGH. Mr. President: The only object of my amendment is to bring before the Convention the condition in which this matter stands. Certain reporters are here who have applied for the reporting of the Convention. I have seen one or two of them. Certain other gentlemen want to contract for the printing, and including the reporting, and then the printers to hire the reporters and do the entire work. All we desire is, that it should be brought to the attention of the Convention, so that the Convention may decide whether they prefer the one method or the other to give it out as a job to a printer, under a contract, or to appoint the reporters themselves, and contract with the reporters for reporting and with the printers for printing.

Mr. WHITE (Indiana.) I will accept the amendment of the gentleman from Dauphin. He and I have in contemplation precisely the same object.

Mr. JOHN PRICE WETHERILL.

Mr.

President: I move to amend, by striking out all after the word "resolved," and inserting the following:

"That a committee of seven be appointed, to be called a Committee on Printing, and that their duty shall be to receive proposals for the printing needed by this body; said committee to open said proposals, and report to this body the lowest responsible bidder, and to attend to such other business as shall be referred to them."

If this amendment is adopted, and we and refer it to them, we can do so. see fit to take off the subject of reporting

Mr. DALLAS. I move that the further

consideratien of the resolution and the amendment be postponed for the present.

Mr. JOHN PRICE WETHERILL. I hope not. It seems to me that this is a very important matter, and should be fixed at the outset. The reporting and printing of this Convention will probably be the largest item of expense.

Mr. KÄINE. Mr. President: I call the gentleman to order. A motion to postpone is not in order.

Mr. JNO. PRICE WETHERILL. It behooves us to see that this money is proper ly expended. I therefore say that this is the most important item before this Convention. Now, sir, I have no doubt that the item of reporting and printing the proceedings of a Convention like this will not be short of twenty-five thousand dollars; therefore, if it does amount to that, it behooves us to give the work out by contract. We should refer it to the committee, and instruct them to receive proposals; and that committee should be charged with the duty of opening those proposals, and awarding the contract to the lowest responsible bidder. I do hope the amendment will be adopted. In reregard to other matters, and in regard to printing-as the matter of reporting is closely allied to that of printing-we have a standing Committee on Printing, and let that matter be referred to that committe for their consideration, and give them charge of everything pertaining to printing.

Mr. GowEN. Mr. President: It seems to me that, if we go into this subject at all, the resolution of Mr. MacVeagh, as accepted by Mr. White, covers the whole ground, and is, in one respect, better than the resolution of Mr. Wetherill, for the reason that the first resolution simply makes it the duty of the committee to report the result of the several bids to this Convention for their action; whereas, the resolution of Mr. Wetherill gives to five or six gentlemen the power to make a contract with the lowest bidder. It seems tó me, however, that this whole question is better met by referring it, or letting it be considered as referred, to the Committee on Rules, for in those rules there will doubtless be a Committee on Printing, Accounts and Reporting. If that is the case, it would be better that the standing committee on this subject should have entire jurisdiction over the whole subject, rather than that a temporary committee should now take action upon it. I would suggest that, to-morrow, we will probably have the report of the Committee. on Rules, which will embrace this subject, and relieve us of the necessity of appointing a special committee.

Mr. DALLAS. Mr. President: The question before the House, as I understand, is my motion to postpone this entire subject for the present. If so postponed, then the purpose of my friend, Mr. Gowen, would

Rules can report. I suppose it is unquestionably true that this question of expense is going to be one of the most serious items imposed upon the tax-payers of the State. I see that certain gentlemen in this hall have considered this subject, and I think it is fair for those who have not considered it that they should have time to consider it also. The reasons that led me to make the motion to postpone are, first, that the Committee on Rules might have an opportunity to report, to see if their report includes this subject; and, second, that members who have not considered the subject may have more itme.

Mr. MACVEAGH. The gentleman is entirely mistaken in his understandingThere has been no consultation upon the subject to my knowledge, other than passed in the committee of nine appointed' by this body, and what has passed in the body of this Convention this morning. It was brought before the committee of nine, and we submitted a recommendation, and it was, in pursuance of that recommendation, that the matter was brought before the Convention. At the meeting of the delegates, to which the gentleman doubtless alludes, in no manner was the subject considered in any direction whatever. I have had, and I am sure I can speak for the gentlemen around me, no consultation whatever about it. This did not come, as we understand it, within the purview of the other action we took. All I want is, that the Convention, and not a committee, shall be confronted with this question: Does the Convention prefer that the reporting shall be done by reporters, and the printing by printers, or that the printing and the reporting shall both be done under a contract with the printer? Even upon that subject I have no settled opinion. But I have an opinión that the Convention ought to decide it rather than a committee.

Mr. NILES. I desire to ask the gentleman a question, and that is if there is not a contract now with the State Printer by which he is entitled to the printing and binding of the State, and in force?

Mr. MACVEAGH. Of that I know nothing. But I do not believe any contract made by the Legislature would be binding upon us, as I do not believe the limitations of the Convention are in any degree binding. I think this Convention is sitting in a sovereign capacity, and is quite competent to make a contract for its print

Mr. JNO. PRICE WETHERILL. No, sir; the printing. I am willing that the reporting shall come up afterward.

The PRESIDENT. The motion is to postpone for the present. Upon that motion debate upon the merits of the question is, legitimately, not in order.

Mr. HARRY WHITE. I move to amend, by making the motion to postpone indefinite. That is debatable. My understanding is, that the motion to postpone for the present is not debatable, but the motion to postpone indefinitely allows the largest latitude of debate.

The PRESIDENT. The Chair is of the opinion that any motion to postpone is debatable, but the debate must be confined to the motion to postpone.

Mr. HARRY WHITE. Then, as to the propriety of postponing this quesion for the present. What is the situation here? A resolution has been offered for the appointment of a committee to consider and report to this Convention the question of reporting and printing its proceedings. We cannot take a step in that direction too quickly. It has been suggested, let us wait, let us delay this matter until the standing committees are appointed, and the Committee on Printing will dispose of this question. Mr. President, this is the second day of our proceedings. I see before me persons taking notes of our proceedings. A part of our history has already occurred. We do not know what step we are going to take. We do not own the notes those persons are taking of our proceedings. The quicker we dispose of this question the better. And here is another question; the State Printer is here on this floor, claiming that the printing of this body belongs to him, by virtue of a contract made by him with the State for doing the State printing. I, as one individual member of this body, do not think it does. But, the committee

contemplated by that resolution has the power to inquire into the whole matter, and report, at the earliest practicable moment, to this Convention such plan as the majority of the committee may devise. Of course, if that committee is prudent, it will invite bids from all over the country, and this Convention will get the result of it, and can act as, in their discretion, seems best.

Mr. DARLINGTON. Mr. President: So far as I have heard the argument here today on this question, they all seem to assume that the debates of this Convention are going to be reported and printed. Is not that the first question that should be carefully considered and decided, whether we intend to have the debates of the Convention reported before we make any contract about it, or rush into any extreme measures from which we cannot back out? It may be the sense of the Convention that we have everything taken down that is done. That may be so; I do not know. We had in the former Convention, I recollect, the report of our daily debates in a daily paper, which lasted five or six weeks, and then we abolished it, by common consent, as useless and unnecessary. Our debates were, nevertheless, reported and printed in German as well as in English, and when they were distributed they were distributed among the libraries. The German nobody wanted. The others they took and got rid of them of them as well as they could. Who read them? Did anybody read them? I recollect your sugestion, Mr. President, that the best we could do with them would be to give the English debates to those who represented German counties, and the German debates to those who represented English counties, and thereby we would be sure nobody read them. I understand that they are not now to be printed in German. But are we ready to have these debates reported in extenso upon every immaterial subject that arises? What interest is it to this generation, or to posterity, whether the debates for the last two days are ever printed? Who wants his nonsense or his folly to be given to posterity? I do not. The reports of this Convention ought to be confined, if the debates are ever reported at all, to an intelligent report of discussions upon principles, and upon the. amendments which are proposed, leaving out of them everything that is trash, everything but substance. How are we to do that? Not by rushing into a contract like