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Senator WHEELER. Do you think that that contract is going to prevent you from having strikes in the future?

Mr. BELDEN. I can not read the future, Senator. I am not qualified to say.

Senator WHEELER. Well, I mean basing it upon past experience. Mr. BELDEN. If the time comes when it seems unwise to continue the use of that, or unnecessary, we will probably drop it. But it illustrates what I say: That we have got to have the right, if we are going to be responsible for the losses of this industry, to determine its policy. If you want to take that chance, then take over our industry and let us out.

Senator COUZENS (presiding). Who are the other witnesses?
Mr. GREEVER. Senator Couzens, Mr. Stephens.

SUPPLEMENTARY STATEMENT BY RODERICK STEPHENS, CHAIRMAN GOVERNMENTAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE, NATIONAL RETAIL COAL MERCHANTS ASSOCIATION

Mr. STEPHENS. I would like to have a copy of my statement distributed to the Senators, and also to Mr. Lewis; I think it will help you in following me, sir. I will be as brief as I can.

Yesterday, in the concluding part of my statement of objections to Senate bill 4490 before the Senate Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce, I made the following statement:

I doubt very much that Congress will choose to alienate the consuming public in order to curry favor with the leadership of a discredited union which has lost its hold on its own members and forfeited the good will of the public by a policy of strikes and violence, coupled with disregard of Federal authority and of the welfare of the rank and file of its own members and of the public. I was interrupted at this point by Mr. John L. Lewis, president of the United Mine Workers of America, who challenged my statement, declaring that it was a vicious untruth and gratuitously offensive.

Senator Wheeler, who was acting as chairman at the hearing, thereupon asked me for a statement of the facts upon which I based my remarks, and I requested and received his permission to submit a memorandum in support.

For the purpose of this memorandum, the quotation above will be divided into three parts, each of which will be followed by an array of facts which I submit as a complete justification for the appropriate part of the statement.

I referred to the "* * leadership of a discredited union, which has lost its hold on its own members * * * by a policy (in) disregard of file of its own members * * * ""

* * *

* * *

the welfare of the rank and

Senator WHEELER. Let me interrupt you.
Mr. STEPHENS. Yes, sir.

Senator WHEELER. I did not ask you with reference to that. You had made the bald statement that the Union had disregarded Federal authority.

Mr. STEPHENS. Yes.

Senator WHEELER. And I asked you to give me instances of where it had.

Mr. STEPHENS. I have those instances right here. But it seemed to me, Mr. Chairman, that in view of the statement made in public by the president of the United Mine Workers, that I ought to be permitted to cover the two points which were not raised by the Senator. May I say that my coverage of that will be very brief.

Senator WHEELER. Let me say this to you, that as far as I am concerned I do not think you are at all helpful in trying to solve this problem of the coal industry which the Congress of the United States is interested in trying to solve, by coming in here and making gratuitous remarks denouncing anybody on one side or the other. We are not here for that purpose. And I am really surprised that you would assume that attitude. It surely was not assumed by the attorney for the coal operators who has just spoken here, and it has not been done by hardly any of the operators that have come in here before this committee. It has been left apparently to representatives of the retail dealers who have not come in close contact with the unions to make some gratuitous remarks of that kind.

Mr. STEPHENS. Well, we have come in close contact with the unions to the extent that we have been an affected party by every strike. We have been affected by the disorders in the industry.

Senator WHEELER. I think that the operators themselves are better judges than some coal dealer over in New York to judge as to whether or not it is a discredited union.

Senator COUZENS (presiding). The witness will proceed with his statement.

Mr. STEPHENS. The present administration of the United Mine Workers came into authority in 1919. At the time of its election a large part of the bituminous mining territory was operating under agreements with the union. The union fields were as follows: In the State of Pennsylvania, central Pennsylvania, Pittsburgh, Freeport, and Butler-Mercer; in the State of West Virginia the following fields, northern West Virginia, upper Potomac, Kanawha, Panhandle, and New River; west Kentucky and a part of southeastern Kentucky and Tennessee; southern Wyoming, half of Colorada, and the whole of the following 12 States: Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Maryland, Michigan, Iowa, Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri, Oklahoma, Montana, and Washington. At the present time only the following fields are operating wholly or in a large part under union agreements: Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Kansas, Missouri, Montana, and southern Wyoming. In other words, the union has almost entirely disappeared from Pennsylvania (with the exception of anthracite), Maryland, West Virginia, Ohio, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Colorado, and Washington. This will indicate the shrinkage in the unionized fields.

The shrinkage in the proportion of union production to the entire bituminous production of the country is equally significant. In 1920 approximately 70 per cent of the soft-coal production of the country came out of union mines. This was illustrated by the fact that the strike call of November, 1919, was 71.4 per cent effective. At the present time only about one-fifth of the soft-coal output of the country is coming out of union mines.

Finally I submit the shrinkage of union membership. The number of men now employed in unionized bituminous mines is 38 per cent lower than the number employed in the same kind of mines in 1920.

I maintain that these figures are sufficient justification for my statement that the union has lost its hold on its own members. Is any further proof needed that the administration of the union has disregarded the welfare of the rank and file of its own members? Their welfare has certainly not been served by a policy which has resulted in the loss of territory, the loss of production, and this substantial loss of membership.

Senator WHEELER. Let me ask you this: Do you want the committee to understand that you believe that the coal miners of the country, generally speaking, have not been benefited because of the fact that they have had a union?

Mr. STEPHENS. I do not. I believe in a union. We operate as a union in New York City, and have for a great many years. I have no objection to unionism, sir.

I made reference to " a policy of strikes and violence."

Mr. WARRUM. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask if this reopens or introduces a new issue upon which the committee desires to hear us later on?

Senator COUZENS. That is not my interpretation. I think this was inspired perhaps by the request of Senator Wheeler and was not wholly considered by the committee.

Mr. WARRUM. Well, it contains quotations here from

Senator COUZENS. I am not concerned about this unless Senator Wheeler is. I do not think the committee is particularly concerned with it. So far as I am concerned, it does not raise any new issue with the committee.

Senator WHEELER. He is giving facts in the statement that I was not interested in in the slightest degree.

Mr. WARRUM. This is something that we ought not to take lying down. And this is new matter.

Senator COUZENS. If you desire to make any statement in response to this, so far as I am concerned, you may have the opportunity. Senator GLENN. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that inasmuch as this is prepared and is being introduced only in response to the supposed request of Senator Wheeler, inasmuch as he says it is not responsive to any request that he made, that it be not further gone into. I make that as a motion to the committee.

Mr. STEPHENS. Mr. Chairman, may I say a word?

Senator GLENN. There is a lot of hard feeling engendered here. I do not think it will help this inquiry. It is being introduced under a misapprehension as to what was asked for. I think the thing to do with this is not to proceed with it further. I know something about some of the facts that are mentioned here, or supposed facts. I think it will delay us and engender bad blood and bad spirits, and not be beneficial to either side of this controversy. I make that as a motion to the committee.

Mr. STEPHENS. May I just say a word with respect to the motion? Senator COUZENS. Yes.

Mr. STEPHENS. I have no objection to the suggestion that Senator Glenn makes. It seems Mr. Lewis made the statement that my assertions were vicious untruths. I have here submitted facts which I believe you will agree warrant the statements that I made. I believe that on those grounds they are entitled to be in the record as

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bearing upon that particular assertion. If you care to have me do so I can proceed to the point that Senator Wheeler raised, and omit any public statement here in respect to violations.

Senator COUZENS. What was the purpose of your making the remark that called for all this? Perhaps you can tell us orally? What was the purpose, knowing the bearings that the committee had had, of arousing this personal attack upon one side or the other?

Mr. STEPHENS. The purpose was this, Senator Couzens. My understanding is that this bill emanates from the present leadership of the United Mine Workers.

Senator COUZENS. What has that to do with the merits of the bill? Mr. STEPHENS. In my opinion it bears on the merits of the bill. Senator COUZENS. Well, not in the judgment of the committee, I think.

Mr. STEPHENS. And in the summary of my remarks where I made

Senator COUZENS. We will suspend any further hearing on this thing and will take this under consideration in executive session. We will suspend any further hearing of this reply until we determine what to do. In the meantime we will adjourn until 10 o'clock to-morrow morning.

Mr. LEWIS. Before you adjourn may I have one word, Senator? Senator COUZENS. Mr. Lewis wants to make a statement.

Mr. LEWIS. I just want to say one word with reference to this matter. I confess to a feeling of outrage that this man, whom I do not know, and with whom the United Mine Workers of America never had any business transactions in its life or its career, should come in here and introduce slanderous material of this character. The mine workers' representatives attended these sessions for several months with the members of the committee, when everybody had a right to introduce what they would, and this subject was more or less gone into by numerous representatives of the operators. We have felt that we were here at this time to consider with the committee and our friends on the other side the matter of the merits involved in the bill which has been presented. I was indignant to think that as an argument against the bill the gentleman should introduce violent criticism of myself and associate officers of the United Mine Workers. I fully agree that the matter is not properly before the committee at this time. I say that the committee has an absolute right to refuse to consider the subject further, but if the committee does decide to consider the matter further, and the matter is laid upon the record of this committee, then, certainly, the United Mine Workers request the committee to give them an opportunity to refute the argument of this gentleman who has introduced this material.

Senator COUZENS. We will decide that and let you know to

morrow.

(Thereupon, at 12 o'clock noon, an adjournment was taken until 10 o'clock a. m. the next day, Wednesday, January 16, 1929.)

BITUMINOUS COAL COMMISSION

WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 16, 1929

UNITED STATES SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE COMMERCE,

Washington, D. C.

The committee met, pursuant to adjournment on yesterday, at 10 o'clock a. m., in room 335, Senate Office Building, Senator James Couzens presiding.

Present: Senators Couzens, Glenn, and Wagner.

Senator COUZENS (presiding). The committee will please come to order. What is the program for this morning?

Mr. GREEVER. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Alfred M. Liveright, attorney for the Central Pennsylvania Coal Producers' Association, is here and desires to make a statement.

Senator COUZENS. You may come forward and state your name and whom your represent.

STATEMENT OF ALFRED M. LIVERIGHT, COUNSEL FOR THE CENTRAL PENNSYLVANIA COAL PRODUCERS' ASSOCIATION, CLEARFIELD, PA.

Mr. LIVERIGHT. Portions of the record in this case indicate, inferentially at least, that ostensibly the proponents of the bill offered desire to aid the bituminous-coal industry of the United States; but a close study of the bill discloses that its primary purpose, as is shown by sections 7 and 10 thereof, is to safeguard the rights and the position of the United Mine Workers of America. Were the purpose of the proponents of the bill really and truly to aid the industry, they would not seek to fetter it by making selling pools, cooperative associations, mergers, consolidations, and cominations subject to regulatory provisions and supervision; they would see that the particular industry which has been in distress for so many years, and whose distress has reacted unfavorably on labor as well, were accorded freedom such as is accorded other great industries and is granted the mine workers themselves. The outstanding difference between the proposed legislation and certain other legislation with respect to the antitrust laws, beginning with the Sherman Act, July 2, 1890, is revealed by analysis of the title of that act, of its initial phrasing, and of some subsequent legislation.

Such analysis clearly shows that in other instances in which a departure from the stringent prohibitions of the antitrust laws has been sanctioned, the interest favored has not been bound by any requirement to submit itself to summary regulation or to be restricted by licenses.

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