It is not necessary for me to go into these at this time, but Government control in the first instance means higher prices and increased cost to our customers

Senator WHEELER. Why do you say that?

Mr. CLARK. That is the way I read the bill.

Senator WHEELER. What is there in the bill that makes you say that?

Mr. CLARK. It indicates that the price of bituminous coal is too low and there has got to be a return on capital invested and all other costs along the line that will bring the figures up.

Senator WHEELER. You feel, do you not, that the bituminous-coal operators ought to have a fair return upon their capital the same as you should have in your business?

Mr. CLARK. Naturally; but we have not in our branch of the industry asked the Government to step in, and I did not know the bituminous-coal operators had.

New England industries will not welcome any increase in their operating cost and they will all begin to look about for substitute fuels, with the signing of this bill, as not before. We had the experience during the war and following the bituminous-coal strike of 1922, of seeing a very large tonnage of bituminous coal go to oil, the question of price being the deciding influence. We have regained a large percentage of this lost business but in all it takes but a few cents per ton to decide the question of the fuel to be used by large users. Oil has been very attractive.

Senator WHEELER. Let me ask you right there: Do you mean to tell the committee that it is cheaper to use oil in New England than it is to use coal?

Mr. CLARK. It has been the case in a great many instances and in

some cases not.

Senator WHEELER. What do you pay for your oil up there?

Mr. CLARK. I could not tell you. I am not in that line of business. But a few weeks ago, in riding from Boston to New York in the smoking car I got into casual conversation with a man-I do not know his name who said that some years ago his mill had been using oil and they went back to bituminous coal on account of price; that now oil was coming so close to it that he was going to put one mill back onto oil and keep one mill on bituminous coal. And he did not know that I had anything to do with the coal business. It is a very attractive proposition.

Senator WHEELER. You do not know what they are paying for oil up there?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir; I do not.

Under the licensing system, as the proposal in this bill, we would expect a Government agency with prices arranged higher than the independent. If there is a place for an independent dealer this condition would lead to serious business disturbances as the larger percentage of the bituminous coal used in New England comes from the so-called southern fields via Norfolk. This fuel is a very high grade and in price and quality controls the New England market. We have seen our coal business jeopardized by competition from oil, and we realize that much of our anthracite business has gone to other fuels because of price. Right now anthracite is being imported from

Scotland, Wales, and Russia. Manufactured coals, briquettes, are coming freely to this country from abroad, and the price does it.

This question of the coming in of Russian coals is a brand-new thing for us. There has none of it arrived yet, but it is en route. I saw in one of our trade papers only Saturday

Senator GoFF. Do you get any coal from Canada?

Mr. CLARK. No, sir. There is no anthracite or bituminous coal that is available in the New England market from Canada at the present time.

Senator GoFF. There has been in the past?

Mr. CLARK. Yes. Years ago there was a lot of coal that came into New England from the Provinces by water.

Senator WHEELER. What Provinces?

Mr. CLARK. On the coast.

Senator GOFF. Nova Scotia used to send some, did she not?

Mr. CLARK. Yes. The huge coke plants built at Everett were originally planned, away back in 1900 or thereabouts, for the use of Navy standard coal, as we used to call it.

Senator GOFF. Is there any likelihood of those mines being reopened and competition arising in that connection?

Mr. CLARK. I am not familiar with the operation of those mines, but I think the quality of the coal had something to do with finally putting a stop to it, rather than the price. I think the price would bring it in now.

Senator WHEELER. They produce it much more cheaply?

Mr. CLARK. It is lower-grade coal. The coal we are receiving is the highest grade of bituminous coal that is mined.

Senator WHEELER. Whereabouts is the coal coming in, that you spoke of; from Russia?

Mr. CLARK. The Russian coal has not arrived yet

Mr. STEPHENS. Yes; it has arrived.

Mr. CLARK. There was a cargo of coal some months ago that was supposed to come from Russia. It came into the Boston market, but nobody would buy it. I am told that it went to Montreal.

Senator GOFF. Why?

Mr. CLARK. The analysis did not satisfy the people who would have to handle it.

Senator GOFF. Was it worth nothing for any purpose?

Mr. CLARK. It is a splendid looking coal. I have a lump of it on my desk in Boston. It looks very much like Pennsylvania anthracite. I do not know what the analysis of it is.

Mr. STEPHENS. The analysis is very good; but the question of breakage entered into it and they were not able to agree on a price to protect the dealer against excessive breakage. They are bringing another cargo over now; the same people that brought the first cargo. Senator WHEELER. I suppose if Russian coal starts to come in you will want a tariff on coal?

Mr. CLARK. We might.

We are receiving a very considerable quantity of coal from Wales; that is, anthracite. We are receiving some coal from Scotland, and it is a very high grade coal of that nature, very high grade

anthracite.

The proposals of this bill calling for advanced prices will open still further the way for competing fuels, as we see it; not only our domestic bituminous business but our anthracite business as well. It is but natural to suppose that the steam sizes of anthracite will advance with any material advance in the price of bituminous coal, especially if it is thought that the price of bituminous coal is fixed by the Federal Government and will become permanent.

The steam sizes of Pennsylvania anthracite are sold on the market in competition with bituminous coal. The price of those coals is practically regulated by the bituminous market; so we would naturally expect they would be advanced with any increase in the price of bituminous.

Senator WHEELER. What are you paying for bituminous coal up in New England now?

Mr. CLARK. Do you mean retail?

Senator WHEELER. Wholesale.

Mr. CLARK. The bulk of our bituminous coal in New England, on the coast, at least, or reasonably near the coast, comes from Norfolk. When we buy it at Norfolk most of us pay our own transportation charges, or are connected with a concern that owns big steamers, and the price fluctuates. It ranges around $5 at Norfolk, and the steamer rate to Boston is approximately $1. I have known it to be 75 cents and I have known it to be $1.50; but to-day it is about $1.

Senator WHEELER. What is the price of the Welsh coal that comes in?

Mr. CLARK. We can buy Welsh anthracite to-day, put on cars in Boston, for $11.50 a ton. Mind you, this domestic anthracite, our Pennsylvania anthracite, moves three different ways to the Boston market: All rail, with a $4.28 freight rate, or in some instances as high as $4.54, within 5 miles of the water front. It may come by way of Philadelphia by steamer to a retail dealer who has a deepwater plant. The freight rate from the mines down to Philadelphia on the Reading is $2.09, and the freight rate by steamer to Boston from Philadelphia varies according to the season and the demand for steamers, about $1. I could say the same thing about the steamer rate from Philadelphia as I said about the steamer rate from Norfolk.

Senator WHEELER. What are you retailing Pennsylvania anthracite for?

Mr. CLARK. It varies in price in accordance with the size. Senator WHEELER. What are you selling chestnut for up there in New England?

Mr. CLARK. $16 a net ton in Boston is what we may call the list price.

Senator WHEELER. What are you getting for the pea coal?
Mr. CLARK. $12.50.

Senator WHEELER. And stove coal?

Mr. CLARK. $16.25.

Senator WHEELER. What are you selling bituminous for? What is the list price?

Mr. CLARK. The list price of bituminous to-day in Boston is $6.75 for very large orders, and it ranges from that up to $7.75 for small retail business and about $8.50 for selected lump coal for somebody's private house.

Senator GOFF. Those are the delivered prices, put into the cellar? Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir. In the case of the small buyers, where they have to carry it or basket it or do something like that, there is an extra charge for the labor; but in large orders there is no charge for labor there at all. I have known bituminous coal to be sold on the Boston market within the last eight months, delivered in the same ways as we are talking now about, at $6.75, for as low as $5.90.

Senator WHEELER. What coal company are you connected with? Mr. CLARK. I am not in the retail business to-day in Boston. I have been in the retail business over 30 years in a little town up in western Massachusetts-you may have heard of it-Northampton. Senator WHEELER. We have casually heard of it.

Mr. CLARK. I have been in the retail business in that town for about 30 years, but I do not have anything to do with the management of the retail business. I have not for the last three years. Senator WHEELER. What business are you in?

Mr. CLARK. Association work in Boston.

Senator GOFF. Have you finished?

Mr. CLARK. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEPHENS. Am I correct in understanding that I am to be permitted to submit a memorandum in support of the statement I made?

Senator WHEELER. How long will that take?

Mr. STEPHENS. I will have it in your hands to-morrow morning. Senator WHEELER. I think you can come here and give it to us before the hearing is closed.

Mr. STEPHENS. Would you prefer to have me appear in person? Senator WHEELER. Yes.

Mr. STEPHENS. May I say that I have no personal animosity toward Mr. Lewis at all. I am simply expressing my judgment as

a citizen.

Senator WHEELER. We will adjourn now until 10 o'clock to-morrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 12 o'clock noon, the committee adjourned until to-morrow, Tuesday, January 15, 1929, at 10 o'clock a. m.)