to know whether or not this is adding profit or if this is adding respect in its proper place. I am not going to sit here and recommend an added amount for burial, opening and closing the grave, the gravesite, if, in proportionate share, they are going to raise the price just a little bit higher and this is a "sop." To me, this is a dishonorable way of treating our honored dead. I would prefer to have no national cemeteries and completely wipe out the whole thing, rather than do this. To me, this is getting just too far commercial. I recognize this is a business to some people. They don't look at it as we laymen who are not in the business. To them this is business, and it is business. To me, it is a little bit different and particularly those who have served in time of war, for then you get more than a dollar sign in your eye; you get a sparkle in your eye, and you don't like the way some people treat your comrade in arms, although he doesn't die right off, but later on does. Then someone will try to get every dollar they can possibly make out of him. I don't want them to reach over to the gravesite, however, and say, "Buddy, have you another buck?" This is the last step. This is my feeling, though not necessarily the committee feeling. Mr. TURNER. I think Mr. Chairman, that nearly all of the bills that we get that are paid by surviving relatives show some sum in excess of $250, with the resultant payment of the maximum we can pay to them. Mr. RUTHERFORD. If it wasn't in excess of $250, they would not get $250? Mr. TURNER. But I would say there are very few we pay out under $250, but I don't have the figures on it. Mr. RUTHERFORD. I think for the effort that this subcommittee has used in going into this. I think we should be as fully aware of all of these factors, without challenging or indicting any particular group or individual. I do feel that we are entitled to as detailed information as your department can possibly furnish us. We would definitely like to have as great a breakdown as possible on the individual morticians' bills to the survivors, as much as possible. Are there questions from the subcommittee? The gentleman from Oregon. Dr. DURNO. Yes, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Turner, how many gravesites are there per acre? Mr. TURNER. About 500, I am told. Dr. DURNO. Then, actually, with your cemetery acreage here and your gravesites available, that difference between the acreage times 500 and the gravesites would indicate the number of people that have been buried in these particular cemeteries? Mr. TURNER. It ought to come out that way, yes. There are 26,000 gravesites available yet. Dr. DURNO. Yes, I understand that. Do you know how many peoples have been buried in these 17 cemeteries? Mr. TURNER. No, sir. Mr. Stevens says we can get it. Mr. TAYLOR. You said, I think, that there were three domiciliary areas that were not attached to veterans hospitals. Mr. TURNER. That is correct. Dr. DURNO. What are the other two besides the one you mentioned? Mr. TURNER. Thomasville, Ga., and Clinton, Iowa. Dr. DURNO. Clinton, Iowa, and what else? Mr. TURNER. Thomasville, Ga. Dr. DURNO. I don't see that. There are no cemeteries, then, attached to the other two domiciliaries? Mr. STEVENS. Three, Thomasville, Ga., Clinton, Iowa, and White City, Oreg. Dr. DURNO. White City is the only one of the three that has a burial site? Mr. STEVENS. That is right. Dr. DURNO. To pursue the question that I asked this morning and the thing that very seriously concerns me, you said that the Administrator as recently as 3 years ago, I believe, had recommended a closing down of the cemeteries. If that is true, what are you going to do with the corpse of an individual that has no residual relatives, has no estate? What are you going to do about those bodies? Mr. TURNER. Well, of course, that policy was based upon the supposed continuance at that time of national cemeteries. If national cemeteries went the same way, I suppose the only thing that would be left would be the burial allowance. Dr. DURNO. This committee is going to have to take all of those things into consideration, certainly, when we get into the meat of this thing because, after all, if there are 22.5 million veterans, getting older by the day, and with the great many that were in World War II, there will be a higher incidence of death as years go by. Certainly, we will have to make some provision because many of those people will not have relatives or dependents to take care of them. Mr. TURNER. That is correct. Dr. DURNO. That is all. Mr. RUTHERFORD. The gentleman from North Carolina. Mr. TAYLOR. You stated that you have about 26,000 gravesites available. You are burying about 2,500 a year? Mr. TURNER. That is correct. Mr. TAYLOR. That would last about 10 years? Mr. TURNER. That is right. There will be some of them that will be closed out long before that, but if we could ship them all away when the cemeteries are closed out in their area, it we could ship them a distance further until we filled them all, it would take, at the present rate, about 10 years. Mr. TAYLOR. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. SAYLOR. What are your plans? For example, I look at your biggest cemetery in Los Angeles. You have approximately 3 years at the present rate until that is filled. Just above it, Hot Springs, S. Dak., you have 2 years until that one is filled. Down in Togus, Maine, it is probably filled already. You have less than a half year of space available. What plans does the VA have to take care of 1,200 people? That is the number you have there, that number of burials, or do have any plans? you Mr. TURNER. As I stated a moment ago, the last affirmative action by an administrator on that particular question was the one which said that there would be no burial after available gravesites are filled. I also said that I cannot tell you what the present Administrator's policy is. I think he is studying it now in the light of the overall administration study, and probably the problem before this committee. Mr. SAYLOR. Let me ask you, then, a hypothetical question. Assuming that the Administrator of Veterans' Affairs takes the position that there were going to be no more acreage additions to Veterans' Administration cemeteries, will not the result then be that there will be an additional 2,000 impact upon the national cemeteries? Mr. TURNER. I think that is unquestionably correct. There might be some variation from that because of the lack of a national cemetery in the vicinity. Mr. SAYLOR. But there will be at least 2,000 a year that are now being taken care of in your cemetery that will have to find burial in some other cemetery? Mr. TURNER. That is right. Well, it would be more than 2,000. It is at about the rate of 2,500 a year. Mr. SAYLOR. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Mr. RUTHERFORD. Would you not say strictly-and I know you are going to furnish the committee the figures at a later day-from your personal experience that most of your burials will be in a national cemetery or some other Federal cemetery of some sort for various reasons, a large percentage of your burials from your homes? Mr. TURNER. From the homes I think that would be true. Mr. RUTHERFORD. Primarily from the homes I refer to. I would say from the homes rather than the hospitals. But I would say that an unusually large percentage will, as almost a requirement, be buried in a national cemetery. Mr. TURNER. I think that is probably a correct statement, Mr. Chairman. Mr. RUTHERFORD. For the record, I am assuming the answer will be in the affirmative, but, for the record, and for those who will read it coming after us, when you refer to Hot Springs, Ark., South Dakota, and some of the others, as these cemeteries are closed out, they are closed out for actual burial, but they are not abandoned. The caretaking will continue on as at present. Mr. TURNER. The caretaking will continue as long as we have a facility there, so far as the Veterans' Administration is concerned. Mr. RUTHERFORD. I thought someone might think, "Well, it is abandoned. They will close the gates and let the grass take over." But that is not the case. We continue perpetual care on that. Does counsel have any questions? Admiral Hort. You speak of spending up to $250 allowance to ship a body away. In other words, let's say for the sake of argument that Togus, Maine, is closed, and it would cost more than $250 to ship that body to a national cemetery. What do you do in a case like that? Mr. TURNER. I would assume in that case, since we could not spend more money than that, we would have to arrange for a local burial in a private cemetery. Admiral HoYT. Here is a man who has no relatives, no residual estate, no assets of any sort, and you can't ship him away. The only local burial that would be available to him would be the potter's field, would it not? Mr. TURNER. Generally, that possibility exists, Admiral, unless he died in a VA facility. If he died in a VA facility we have the provi sions of section 903 of title 38, which provides that where death occurs in a Veterans' Administration facility to which the deceased was properly admitted for hospital or domiciliary care, the Administrator shall pay the actual cost not to exceed $250 of the burial and funeral and then further says in subparagraph (b), in addition to the foregoing, when such a death occurs in the continental United States or Hawaii, the Administrator shall transport the body to the place of burial in the continental United States or Hawaii. Where such a death occurs in the territory, a Commonwealth or possession of the United States, the Administrator shall transport the body to a place of burial within such territory, Commonwealth or possession. That is why I interjected the qualification a while ago that that depends on whether he dies in a facility or not. Admiral Hort. In other words, to go back to page 4 of your statement, No. 1, would be taken care of. Mr. TURNER. That is correct. Admiral HoYT. No. 2, if it was going to cost more than $250 would go to the potter's field, is that correct? Mr. TURNER. Well, I don't know that it would always have to go to a potter's field, but that possibility exists. You can sometimes get a burial plot in a private cemtery and a burial within $250. We have a good many contracts where they will do that. Admirl HoYT. But the possibility does exist? Mr. TURNER. The possibility exists. Admiral HoYT. Thank you. That is all, Mr. Chairman. Dr. DURNO. May I ask one more question? If the event that you transferred this body from one place to another, is it the policy to transmit it to the nearest national cemetery or do you transfer it to where the dependents would like to have it? Mr. TURNER. The nearest place, the nearest national cemetery. Except I do not think that the statute would limit us. Dr. DURNO. But it is your policy? Mr. TURNER. If he dies in one of our facilities, our authority would be broad enough if the surviving relatives requested us to send it to a place farther than the nearest facility. Dr. DURNO. Is it your policy to do that? Mr. TURNER. Well, it is, unless they insist upon it, I think, because, of course, transportation cost is considerable too. Mr. BRONAUGH. If I may amplify that, I think there are two situations. One is where we were talking about if a person died in our facility and where being transferred by us to bury him because there was no next of kin, or others; in the second situation, to which section 903 (b) is directed, where a man dies in our facility and a surviving kin selects a burial, there we can transfer him to the place of burial. If he dies in a VÁ facility here in D.C., we can actually send him as far as, say, Hawaii, if that is the place of burial. To summarize, there are two situations: One is where we are disposing of the body, if I may use that expression, and one where there is a next of kin taking over. Dr. DURNO. I wanted to get that into the record. Mr. TURNER. That statement is correct, Mr. Durno. Admiral HoYT. I would like to ask one more question: Where the next of kin asks that the body be moved, you are still limited to $250? Mr. TURNER. If he dies in one of our facilities? Admiral HOYT. Yes. Mr. TURNER. No. The transportation is not out of the $250. Admiral HoYT. So in the case you cited, if the next of kin wanted the body moved, let's say, from Togus, Maine, to Hawaii, you would have to pay for that transportation? Mr. TURNER. That is correct. And that would not come out of the $250 or reduce the $250 allowance, either. Mr. RUTHERFORD. That would be added to the burial expenses allowable of $250 in benefits? Mr. TURNER. That is correct. Mr. BRONAUGH. For completeness, I would like to add one more thing: The text of 903 (b), title 38, United States Code, which Mr. Turner read, was the text as it existed prior to the last session of Congress. There was a slight liberalization last year of Public Law 87-99, so now we can transport a body to and from the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico or from a possession, the same as we can within the 50 States. Mr. RUTHERFORD. Are there any further questions? There being none, Mr. Turner, we are grateful to you and your staff for bringing us this testimony and information. We would also like for you to furnish with your most possible haste and convenience the information we have requested here this morning. Mr. TURNER. Yes, Mr. Chairman. We will endeavor to get that as soon as we possibly can. (The data to be supplied follows:) Hon. J. T. RUTHERFORD, VETERANS' ADMINISTRATION, OFFICE OF GENERAL COUNSEL, Chairman, Subcommittee on National Parks, Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs, House of Representatives, Washington, D.C. DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: During the recent hearings on national cemeteries you requested Mr. David A. Turner, Assistant General Counsel, to secure certain information for the use of the subcommittee. Especially you desired information as to the average cost of those funerals where the Veterans' Administration paid "burial allowances" under the provisions of section 902 of title 38, United States Code. As you were advised at the hearings, the Veterans' Administration does not routinely maintain statistical data which would permit us to furnish this figure, and the vouchers and supporting papers are filed in the individual veterans' claims folders in our regional offices. We find, however, that a study of this subject was made within the last few years. A 1-percent sampling of all cases in which the veteran's death occurred between January 1, 1958, and June 30, 1958, and between October 1, 1958, and March 31, 1959, was taken by our 63 regional offices. A total of 1299 cases were reviewed during this period. The average burial cost for the first period was $744 and for the latter period it was $816. We are enclosing a table showing the cost range distribution of veterans' burials as compiled from this study. In response to your further questions, we find that as of January 31, 1962, there were 121,802 graves filled in the VA cemeteries, and that during fiscal year 1961, there were 38,835 deaths in VA hospitals and domiciliaries and 2,536 burials in VA cemeteries. This would indicate that roughly 6.5 percent of veterans dying in VA facilities that year were buried in VA cemeteries. We regret that we are unable to furnish you with information as to the percentage of individuals dying in VA hospitals and VA domiciliaries who were buried in |