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Mr. HICKS. Before you go on with fuel, while speaking of steamship transportation, supposing a steamship comes into the harbor of San Francisco with a cargo of freight from an eastern seaport, destined for San Francisco, and in that ship there are, say, 500 tons of cargo that are consigned to Alameda, the remainder of the cargo being consigned to San Francisco. Do I understand that that cargo will be shipped over from San Francisco to Alameda at the same rate as if the entire cargo were consigned to San Francisco? In other words, is the shipment across the bay absorbed by the main line charge?

Mr. CAINE. Yes; that is true. There are three lines making Oakland a port of call, and, in order to meet that competition, those lines that do not touch this side of the bay as a port of call beat the rate of those that do.

Mr. HICKS. But suppose it is the small part of the cargo. Must it, for instance, be more than 500 tons?

Mr. CAINE. I don't know as to that. Mr. Lawrence is here, I think, and, if so, he can tell us. Is Mr. V. O. Lawrence here? I will find that out for you, Mr. Hicks. I have understood that it applies to all shipments since it has been established. It used to be the other way, and the charge was made, before these three steamship lines made this side of the bay a port of call, but since those lines have made Oakland a port of call the plan has been changed, I believe. I will supply that information and give it to you before you leave.

Fuel oil can be piped direct to the Alameda site or it can be delivered by barge from any of the large refineries located on the continental side of San Francisco Bay.

Senator WALSH. Let us see there, Mr. Caine. Here is one of these ships having a cargo, the major portion of which is consigned to San Francisco. She unloads that there?

Mr. CAINE. Yes.

Senator WALSH. Will she come over here for an inconsequential portion of the cargo?

Mr. CAINE. It would be barged across if it were inconsequential. If the cargo were sufficient to justify the ship coming over here, the ship would come, but if it were a small shipment it would be barged across without additional charge.

Mr. BRITTEN. I am told, Mr. Caine, that the practice was for ships, where only an inconsequential portion of the cargo, as you say, was consigned to this side of the bay, and the ship, being unloaded at San Francisco, would have the cargo lightered over here at a charge of 80 cents a ton. Is that not now correct?

Mr. CAINE. That is not true since we have had this made a port of call.

Mr. BRITTEN. That was told us yesterday by a shipping man.

Mr. CAINE. I will cover that by some one who knows more definitely later.

Mr. HICKS. I wish you would make that very full, because that was the purpose of my question; to bring that out.

Mr. CAINE. Will you send for Mr. V. O. Lawrence, please?

As to the possibility of piping oil, that could be piped directly to the plant or brought down by barges to any points on the upper bay by barge.

Mr. PADGETT. How long a pipe line would it require if they wanted to pipe oil into the yard?

Mr. CAINE. I think the nearest pipe line now is at Richmond; about 15 miles, I should say. I think the oil companies would be very glad to put a pipe line of that kind in, in order to secure the customer that the Government would be with its naval base, without any cost whatever.

Mr. PADGETT. It is a distance of about 15 miles as it stands now? Mr. CAINE. About 15 miles. But in the meantime, until that pipe

is laid, it can be barged in here.

Mr. PADGETT. Yes; but I was getting the distance.

Mr. CAINE. As I say, I think about 15 miles you would have to run a pipe line, and I have no doubt that the companies would look at that that the cost of that would be cared for by any oil company that could get the business.

Mr. PADGETT. Would it require additional pumping machinery located at the yard or would the initial machinery bring it here? Mr. CAINE. I think it could be brought in. The lines into ichmond come over the hills from Contra Costa County, and I think there is sufficient fall there. It is a matter I have not looked into, but I should judge there is a sufficient fall to bring it in here by gravity.

In the same connection, I want to say that high tension lines pass. near to the site, delivering hydroelectric power at a minimum cost. We will ask an officer that will be here representing one of the power companies to give you information after I finish upon the cost of hydroelectric power in this market. Should future developments tend to minimize the use of oil as fuel, the substitution of coal would be made feasible by the facilities for delivery, either by rail or water. When the Alaska coal is developed, it can of course be brought in by water and delivered directly to the base.

Reclamation of the site: The Alameda site is partly on filled ground and partly in shoal water and can be easily reclaimed. The use of large areas of reclaimed land on both sides of the bay has demonstrated the feasibility of the Alameda project. All that part of San Francisco east of Montgomery Street is built upon filled ground which supports many of the heaviest structures in the city, including the Ferry building and the Southern Pacific Building, one of the largest office structures in San Francisco. The Ferry Building withstood the shock of the tenblor in 1906 without any damage whatever, while structures of like weight built upon bedrock did not fare nearly so well. About one-fourth of the area of the city of Alameda is made ground and the heavy structures of the Bethlehem, Moore, and Hanlon Shipyards are built upon filled areas. The mammoth machine shop in the Bethlehem yard, one of the largest buildings of its kind in the United States, stands upon filled ground very similar in character to that found on the Alameda site.

Senator WALSH. What was the depth of water there?

Mr. CAINE. That was built on a slough which ran off into the estuary there was a slough ran through the yard of the Bethlehem Co. and emptied into the estuary, right down through there [indicating].

Mr. KING. Right at this point here, Senator. The slough ran through in that direction [indicating], next to the bridge.

Mr. CAINE. All that colored ground there, Senator that is all filled ground, that colored ground.

Senator WALSH. Which apparently was ground which was almost above water at low tide.

Mr. CAINE. It may be partly so, but that would not cut any figure with the bearing weight of the ground whatever it is just a question of the cost of fill. The fact that the ground lies under water does not make its bearing weight any less, if it is the right kind of ground. Mr. BRITTEN. When you said that these various buildings were built upon filled ground, you of course realize that they are built on piles.

Mr. CAINE. Yes generally speaking.

Mr. BRITTEN. So they are really not built on the ground.

Mr. CAINE. Oh, no; you would have to put piling in for foundations on any of this water front, on either side of the bay, whether at Alameda or Hunters Point. The yard of the Union Construction Co. was on ground recently filled-point that out, Mr. King. Mr. KING. Lying right in there [showing].

Mr. CAINE. That is recently filled ground, and back of that there is still shoal water, and they have some very heavy structures there. Mr. BRITTEN. What depth of water have you?

Mr. CAINE. The quay wall is 30 feet now.

Mr. BRITTEN. That part of the quay wall?
Mr. CAINE. Yes.

Mr. BRITTEN. Just what do you mean by that?

Mr. CAINE. The front of the quay wall.

Mr. BRITTEN. And the front of the quay wall is what?

Mr. CAINE. There is a quay wall built across there, in this case marking a line between the land and the water, and in front of that has all been dredged. Back of it, where the Union Construction Co. built its yard, there is from 4 to 6 feet of water in there; but there was an old slough running through there, too, not the most promising foundation-still they got very good foundations, as Mr. Johnson told some of you gentlemen this morning.

Mr. BRITTEN. Is there 30 feet depth of water between those two buoys [indicating] ?

Mr. CAINE. Not in all the area. There is a small channel dredged along the sea wall, and then running out toward the open bay. That buoy over on this side is the old long wharf of the Southern Pacific, which has now been taken out. But there is a channel running on the quay wall and running like that, dredged to 30 feet, approximately.

Mr. BRITTEN. Was that done by the Government?

Mr. CAINE. NO; that was done by the city of Oakland. That is within the corporate lines of the city.

Under the head of "General characteristics," the fact that part of the site has to be dredged and part of it filled is an advantage in many respects, for when the work is completed you will have a site made to order. There are no hills to cut down and no deep fills to be made. As laid out by the Helm commission, the project is a balanced one. The dredgings from the outer edge of the site are sufficient to fill the amount of ground needed and as the site is immediately contiguous to the deepest anchorage of the bay, there are no channels to dredge or maintain.

Mr. PADGETT. At that point, may I ask you how much land is embraced in the area here bounded by this line over to this point and to this point, as shown on this map?

Mr. CAINE. Can you answer that, Mr. Hewes ?

Mr. HEWES. I think I will have to refer to Admiral Parks on that. Do you remember that, Admiral?

Mr. PADGETT. I am simply asking for the acreage shown by this line here-included within that outline.

Mr. CAINE. That would be the land recommended in the original Helm plan.

Mr. HEWES. There were 1,028 acres, 522 acres under water.
Admiral PARKS. Five hundred and forty-six acres of land.

Mr. PADGETT. Was the 546 acres of dry land embraced in the area I have indicated here?

Mr. HEWES. That is correct, yes.

Mr. PADGETT. Just another question, please. You are speaking of the dredging of the outside to fill the inside. How much area in the deep water would they have to dredge to get sufficient dirt to make this dry land here?

'Mr. CAINE. I will have to ask Admiral Parks for that, too.

Admiral PARKS. Roughly, I should say it would take about 600 acres to 40 feet.

Mr. PADGETT. Would that figure out to about 40 feet of water? Admiral PARKS. That takes us out to about 40 feet of water. Mr. PADGETT. And would it be bounded by a continuation of these parallel lines?

Admiral PARKS. If that is 2 miles to deep water.

Mr. PADGETT. Would that be sufficient, coming out here to the 40-foot line, to completely fill this [indicating]?

Admiral PARKS. To completely fill the 540 acres.

Mr. CAINE. The best anchorage in San Francisco Bay lies directly in front of this site, and there is ample room for the entire fleet to ride at anchor in an area free from channel currents and without interfering with any of the main routes of travel on the bay.

The records of the Coast and Geodetic Survey show that the depth of water on the Alameda site is practically the same to-day as when the first survey was made in 1857, which indicates that there has been little or no silting since that date.

From the navigator's standpoint, the site is the most conveniently situated of all those under consideration, being only 8.3 miles from the Golden Gate, as compared to 11.7 miles at Hunters Point, and 26.6 miles at Mare Island. The Helm commission points out that all the San Francisco Bay sites are safe from enemy gun fire owing to the protection afforded by the Government defenses around the Golden Gate. As the Alameda site lies behind the peninsula of San Francisco, it is not within range of direct gun fire from the ocean. The nearness of the site to the Golden Gate is declared by naval experts to be important, as a naval base is built for war conditions rather than peace conditions, and the facility with which a disabled vessel could reach her base for repair during an engagement might be the determining factor in saving a superdreadnaught or even in the outcome of an engagement.

Mr. PADGETT. You were speaking of the silting. A gentleman who addressed the committee yesterday in San Francisco, who was reputed as having especially full knowledge with reference to the silting of the bay, stated that there would be very great silting along the front of the docks, the entrance of the docks. I think he was a pilot, or something of that kind.

Mr. CAINE. We' secured our information on that from Capt. DeMerritt, who was next to the head man in the United States Engineer office under Col. Rees, and subsequent engineers there, a man who died a few months ago, and he stated to us that there has been practically no silting on this shore. The currents from the upper bay do not strike out there. They strike out between Goat Island and the Key Route Pier. The silt comes down the river, and is notable on that side there, but as we are out of the range of that channel, we do not suffer from silting in the neighborhood of this particular site.

Mr. PADGETT. This particular gentleman stated that, on account of the tides coming in and washing and depositing the silt, it is deposited in front of the entrance to those docks there--the entrance to these wharves.

Mr. CAINE. I think that was merely his theory. As you say, he was probably some man on a tugboat around the bay, or something of that kind.

Mr. PADGETT. He was represented to us as a man having peculiar and special knowledge, born of long experience and service in the bay, and was said to have greater familiarity with conditions than any one person engaged in the service.

Mr. HICKS. Mr. Caine, how long has your estuary been built?
Mr. CAINE. I can't answer that question.

Mr. HICKS. The reason I am asking that is

Mr. CAINE (interrupting). Do you know, Mr. Hewes, how long the estuary has been built?

Mr. HUGHES. I do not. Do you know how long [addressing a by-stander]?

THE BY-STANDER. Eighteen hundred and seventy-two, the first project.

Mr. HICKS. The reason I am asking that question is that that would give us some sort of a notion as to silting, by getting at how much it has had to be dredged; it would be probable that if it silted on that side, it would silt over here. Do you have to dredge that out? Mr. CAINE. It has to be dredged out, but I think your conclusion is not necessarily correct.

Mr. PADGETT. What is the distinction there, if any?

Mr. CAINE. The estuary is connected here with San Leandro Bay through the tidal canal, through tidal currents, and San Leandro Bay is little more than a mud flat, and undoubtedly a large amount of silting comes from there. In fact, it is very apparent, because the upper end fills much more quickly than the lower end.

Mr. HICKS. The question I was asking was on the basis of actual surveys, and not upon theory.

Mr. PADGETT. I was asking, or what I wanted to know was if there had been any actual measurements covering a substantial period of time, to indicate whether it was silted.

Mr. CAINE. Yes, I think that is kept by the Coast and Geodetic Survey. Then there is this other fact, that the Southern Pacific

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