same damage that would result as if a power company built dams for the development of power, as has been done in many cases not in Mississippi but in Arkansas. Mr. MCCLELLAN. I appreciate that but the thought I am making is this: In the new recommendations here, in the modified plan or in the plan that we are asked now to adopt in lieu of the Jadwin plan, they make a distinction as to acquiring these reservoirs, and say that the Government shall acquire the lands; whereas when we get down to the Mississippi River Valley and go to acquire flood rights, they say local interests must acquire them, and then "we will reimburse them up to a certain amount based on our judgment of what the damage is." What I am trying to drive at is: Why the distinction in the new plan? Mr. WHITTINGTON. The distinction is accountable for because the Government has never built a levee on the Mississippi River anywhere, except the local interest either acquired and paid for the right-of-way or did their best to acquire it and convey it to the Government upon their paying the purchase price. Personally, if we are going to make a floodway anywhere, I think, Mr. McClellan, I have made myself clear on this record that I believe that the floodway ought to be used, just as it is used along the Sacramento River when the floods reach bank full stage; and the property owners ought to be paid. Mr. MCCLELLAN. Yes, I am just as anxious for you to get protection up there to your people, and I am sure you want us to have protection down there, but I see in the difference in the two plans the certainty of your protection and the uncertainty of ours. For that reason I am trying to find out, why make the distinction? Mr. WHITTINGTON. I am making no distinction. In the reservoirs the floods will come every year. Happily, and I trust for the future, neither Mississippi nor Arkansas has had any water on these protected lands for the last 6 years. By this strong right arm of the Federal Government and the engineers, I believe the engineers are going to do their dead level best to keep us from having any floods as long as those levees can contain the waters that may come down between them. If by chance we have either on the Yazoo or the Mississippi a superflood that is never contemplated, we are all in for water. Mr. FERGUSON. How much less than the estimated cost do you think these reservoirs, just on a percentage basis, could be constructed for? Mr. WHITTINGTON. Mr. Ferguson, I do not want to say how much less it is going to cost in Louisiana, Arkansas, or Mississippi, or anywhere. Mr. FERGUSON. I mean the reservoirs that are contemplated in this plan. You made the remark that the estimates were excessive Mr. WHITTINGTON. No; I beg your pardon. Mr. FERGUSON. That you thought that they could be constructed for Mr. WHITTINGTON. No; I said that the estimates were made when land values generally in Mississippi, and as I understand it, other States, especially in the Mississippi Valley, were higher then they are now. In other words, I mean my own land and the land of my constituents generally are worth less than they were in 1928 and 1929 and 1930, when these values were made, both in the St. Francis and in the Mississippi. Mr. FERGUSON. I just wanted to make the point that if that were true in Mississippi, it was probably true on the estimates of the reservoirs all over the United States, since the estimates were made at a high level. Mr. WHITTINGTON. Unfortunately, I understand that real-estate values in the United States, even in the magnificent State of Oklahoma, have been high, but are now low, and I am prepared to say that I own land that I would like to sell at much less than I could have gotten for it in 1928. Mr. FERGUSON. Your opinion is that the probable cost of the reservoir system in the United States would be much less than the estimated cost? Mr. WHITTINGTON. That is one reason I say I have advocated public improvements to relieve distress in a depression. I have advocated that we ought to have something to show for our money when the depression is over. I believe in all the States if we had put the money that may have been allocated in fact in internal improvements, that would promote the progress of the people. Permanent improvements will be for the best interests of your State and mine. That is one reason I stand for flood control. I do not know of any better way that relief money can be spent than in improving the flood situation in your State and in mine. I have no desire to continue. You understand I have been merely answering your questions. I have not reached the main argument in behalf of my project. The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Whittington. I have had a request from a few persons to make short statements, in order that they may leave. They cannot remain here longer and desire to go home. Are Are any of those persons present? STATEMENT OF JOHN KLORER, CHIEF STATE ENGINEER, LOUISIANA Mr. KLORER. Mr. Chairman, if the committee is pressed for time, possibly it will answer the purpose for me simply to file this statement without reading it. It is a very short statement. I might tell you in a word that it is a statement endorsing the proposed modifications of the adopted plan that have been submitted in the letter of the Chief of Engineers to the chairman of this committee. If you, Mr. Chairman, believe that it answers the purpose just as well, I will leave this statement that was prepared after a consultation of the members of the board of State engineers, and which represents in a concise manner, I think, the attitude and position of the board of State engineers. It endorses the modifications that have been proposed. The CHAIRMAN. Is that satisfactory to the Committee? The privilege will be granted, Mr. Klorer. Thank you very much. (The statement referred to follows:) EXHIBIT "H" Congressman RILEY J. WILSON, Chairman Flood Control Committee, STATE OF LOUISIANA, BOARD OF STATE ENGINEERS, New Orleans, La., April 2, 1935. House of Representatives, Washington, D. C. DEAR SIR: At a meeting of the board of State engineers held on Friday, March 29, it was decided that the statement issued by the board of State engineers before the conference of levee board representatives held in New Orleans on March 20 should be filed with the Flood Control Committee of the House as indicating the views of the Board of State Engineers of Louisiana regarding the proposed modifications to the Flood Control Act of May 1928. The statement is as follows: "The board of State engineers has individually and collectively considered the proposed modifications to the Flood Control Act of May 1928, as reported in the letter addressed by the Chief of Engineers to the Honorable Riley J. Wilson, Chairman of the House Committee on Flood Control, and has come to the following conclusions: "First. The substitution of what is called the "Eudora Floodway" for the Boeuf Floodway is of such unquestioned benefit to a great portion of the citizens of the northeast portion of the State that the circumstances which contributed to the possibility of its use as an adequate floodway should be hailed as a great engineering triumph. "This satisfactory and economic solution of what was a difficult situation represents the first great dividends received from the establishment of the hydraulic laboratory at Vicksburg. "There has been some expression to the effect that it is unnecessarily wide. Attention is invited to the fact that this floodway is dimensioned to carry a certain quantity of flowage (700,000 cubic feet per second), as determined by experimental results. The willingness of the United States Government to pay for flowage rights is a deterrent to any disposition on its part to secure excess floodway area. "The board of State engineers offers this criticism: That the guide levees of this floodway should be extended further downstream than their present proposed termination and feels sure that this can be done within justifiable limits of costs and without unduly reducing the reservoir area at the lower end of the Fifth Louisiana Levee District. "Second. The board of State engineers approves of the proposed construction of a back protection levee extending from the head of the Eudora Floodway north to the Arkansas River as a necessary line of defense for the protection of the populous Boeuf Basin and which back protection levee will come into service only during a superflood such as might occur when the Eudora Floodway, plus the accelerated discharge through the proposed cut-offs, will be insufficient to pass the flood flow in the main section of the river immediately south of the Arkansas River. "Third. The board of State engineers approves the proposed maintenance of the present river levees between the head of the Eudora Floodway and the northern junction with the protection levee above referred to at the 1914 grade, but urges that the cross-section of such levees be made to conform with the 1928 cross-section, rather than with the section applicable to the 1914 grade as proposed. "The purpose in mind in providing a long length of below-grade levee as a flood-reducing device assumes that that levee will withstand crevassing until the flood stage reaches the top and goes over the top. Therefore the necessity for increasing the section to a degree comparable with the section of the mainline levees is apparent. "Fourth. The board of State engineers is in accord with the proposed construction of a floodway at or near Morganza, extending from the Mississippi River to the Atchafalaya River backwater, and with a control structure at its head, so that the discharge through the floodway will begin when the Angola gage reads 49 feet. Such a floodway will be most effective in providing flood protection to the lower section of the Mississippi River, where the greatest density of population and greatest property values prevail. "Fifth. The board of State engineers is in full accord with the proposed raising of the levees from the head of the Morganza Floodway to the head of the Atchafalaya River to full standard grade and cross section, but believes that the project should go further so as to include also the raising of the levees to full standard grade and section from the head of the Atchafalaya down the east side of the Atchafalaya to the junction with the north levee of the Morganza Floodway. Sixth. The board of State engineers concurs in the recommendations made and urges as items of prime importance (a) the proposed rapid completion of the guide levees in the Atchafalaya Basin; (b) the improvement by dredging of the discharge capacity of the Atchafalaya River and its outlets; and (c) the early undertaking of the proposed additional outlet to the Gulf of Mexico west of Berwick. These proposed works in the Atchafalaya Basin constitute the heart of the flood-control plan for Louisiana. "The Fifth Louisiana Levee District is dependent on them. The lower Red River Valley is dependent on them. The lower Mississippi River from Baton Rouge to the Gulf is dependent upon them. The great city of New Orleans, with assessed values exceeding by one and one-half times the combined assessed values of all the levee districts in the State, is dependent on these works in the Atchafalaya. "The board of State engineers does not feel that it should be called on for an expression of opinion on matters other than the engineering features of the proposed plan. It recognizes that certain hardships will be occasioned in carrying out a project of this kind. In the accomplishment of any great project it is often necessary to do a little harm in order to do a great good. This necessity should not stand in the way of the approval of the plan. The United States Engineer Department, even under the limitations of the present Jadwin plan, have stretched the provisions of the Flood Control Act to the limit in the interest of the citizens. It is reasonable to expect similar just treatment in the future. "The matter of payment for rights-of-way is perhaps predicated on an erroneous assumption that assessed values were somewhere at or near real values. If that assumption is wrong, it would seem that it is a matter that can be adjusted on a fair basis if properly presented. "With the exception of certain minor details which the board of State engineers feels can be satisfactorily adjusted with the United States engineers, it wishes to record its approval of the proposed modifications. It comes as near being a perfect plan, consistent with justifiable outlay of funds, as it is possible to conceive, and so much superior to the provisions of the present plan of flood control that there should not be any hesitation on the part of this convention in heartily approving it." Respectfully submitted. BOARD OF STATE ENGINEERS, STATEMENT OF H. P. MOUNGER, PRESIDENT POLICE JURY, POINTE COUPEE PARISH, LA. Mr. MOUNGER. I wanted to get a statement into the record at this particular hearing, Mr. Chairman, but the time is so short, inasmuch as Mr. Sanders stated that he would have to leave here in a few minutes, that I shall leave a statement with Mr. Sanders and ask him if he will file that for the record later. I cannot stay later than today to attend these hearings, so I will adopt this method of getting that statement into the record. The CHAIRMAN. That may be done. STATEMENT OF MR. H. P. MOUNGER, LETTSWORTH, LA., PRESIDENT OF THE POLICE JURY OF POINTE COUPEE PARISH AND ALSO CHAIRMAN OF THE POINTE COUPEE FLOOD PROTECTIVE ASSOCIATION Expressing my personal views and the views of those whom I represent, I wish to endorse the project of flood control as outlined by the Chief of Engineers with certain modifications, most of which were recommended by the Louisiana Flood Control Committee. First. With respect to that area which lies north of the proposed Morganza Spillway, comprising more than 100,000 acres, much of which is in a high state of cultivation and is bounded on the east, north, and west by the Mississippi River, Old River, and the Atchafalaya River, I wish to emphasize the fact that the entire levee line protecting this area should be brought up to the 1928 commission grade and section. This insistance is in view of the fact that the letter from the Chief of Engineers to Congressman Riley J. Wilson, Chairman of the Flood Committee of the House, of date February 12, 1935, provides in paragraph 28, page 9, "the levees extending from this intake north along the main river and Old River to the head of the Atchafalaya River are to be raised to afford additional protection to the northern end of Pointe Coupee Parish." Property within this area will suffer a drainage handicap because of this project and the sacrifices made in order to remove the fuseplug menace which is contained in the Jadwin plan. The upper guide levee of the Morganza Spillway will completely encircle this section and a levee failure on the east bank of the Atchafalaya, north of the guide levee, would make a lake of the entire area comprising the northern part of Pointe Coupee Parish. An attempt to save expense by having any of the levee afford less than a maximum of protection would be false economy in view of the great destruction which would result from a failure of any part of this levee. With respect to drainage, the upper guide levee of the proposed Morganza Spillway will intercept every bit of the run-off of this entire area which drains south into and through the proposed spillway. If nothing is done about this, the accumulation of rain water will gradually cover the area in question resulting in destroying its usefulness. The only really effective way to overcome this is by artificial drainage, but whereas the project does not contemplate a pumping plan and whereas we are anxious to cooperate in every reasonable way possible, I wish to especially urge that suitable gates be installed at the point where the upper guide levee I will intercept the main drainage outlet (Johnson's Bayou) of this area. wish to urge that this drainage bayou be enlarged and deepened in a northerly direction to connect up a chain of bayous which will also be deepened and enlarged and connected with a number of lakes, the most important of which are Lakes Moreau, Burnt Cypress, and Round. The object of this is to provide storage room for the run-off of the rainfall during the period in which the spillway is in operation. It is essential that this storage area be empty when the spillway begins to operate. That will require that Johnson's Bayou, the present main drain, be enlarged and deepened in a southerly direction below the upper guide levee into the spillway area a sufficient distance to assure ample storage room in the lakes and bayous for rain water during the operation of this spillway. I wish hereby to endorse the statement of Mr. Steve Barbre with respect to the fairness of requiring twice the assessed value of the property within the spillway in order to adequately compensate the property owners for flowage rights because I know of my own knowledge as president of the police jury, that the cuts, reductions, and exemptions of assessments were actually made. For your information, I am attaching hereto a partial list of the assessed values of property and improvements in the proposed spillway areas, together with a partial appraisal of the improvements on the said property, which appraisal was made at my request by Mr. Edgard Laiche, of Morganza, and Mr. O. E. Laurent, of New Roads. My purpose in submitting these is to show how ridiculously low the assessments on improvements are in this proposed spillway area. I think these exhibits will show that the improvements are not assessed in excess of 10 percent of their replacement value. I think that what I am asking for herein is reasonable, fair, and modest. H. P. MOUNGER, President Police Jury. PARTIAL LIST OF THE LANDS IN THE PROPOSED SPILLWAY BETWEEN MORGANZA AND RED CROSS NO. 433. BOURGEOIS, P. O., 280 ACRES 50 agricultural class B, $2,000; 50 acres agricultural class C, $750; 180 Total_ $3, 650 1,000 4, 650 |