migrate, and we are also aware that nobody else has offered any relief to the group. As I pointed out in the statement, it is our opinion that private capital could not do it profitably. We would make a charge for the service, but the charge would have to be commensurate with the ability of the individual to pay it and the type of facilities furnished.

Obviously, we could not furnish anything like air-conditioned housing, and all that sort of thing, but some relief should be furnished. Senator JOHNSTON. Do you think that ought to be encouraged too much? That is another thing you have to think about a little bit.

Mr. CREASEY. Senator, I do not know whether it would be encouraging it or not. We know that it happens. We know that the employers are to a large extent completely dependent upon such migration.

Senator JOHNSTON. If you build them camps and homes, though, you are going to have a lot of people that would probably go from place to place that would not otherwise do so.

Senator THYE. Mr. Chairman, if I may ask this question?

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Thye.

Senator THYE. Where did you get your information about the movement of the families? Who has given you this information? Mr. MISLER. The Employment Service.

Senator THYE. From where?

Mr. MISLER. The United States Employment Service, Department of Labor.

Senator THYE. Where do they get their information?

Mr. MISLER. We have some 1,800 local offices situated throughout the entire country.

Senator THYE. Did you try to visulaize what it would be like if a family was moving from, we will say, Hollandale, which is on the border of Iowa, up to Red River Valley, how many such stations you would have to have to accommodate the overnight stops of this family group? You know some of us are familiar with this, and it seems a little visionary to me. I am trying to figure out where you got your ideas.

Senator JOHNSTON. How are they going to move and what kind of transportation will they use? You will have to take all that into consideration.

Senator HOLLAND. I was anxious to take a practical problem in this field. It is a well-known fact that migratory farm labor that starts out in south Florida in the winter ends up in Connecticut in the tobacco fields in the late summer or early fall. Is it your idea to have a series of tourist camps that would accommodate this migratory labor as it moves from south Florida to Connecticut through the course of the various seasons, extending from winter in Florida to early fall in Connecticut? Is that your idea?

Mr. CREASEY. That is correct.

Senator AIKEN. They pay them minimum wages and they have got to earn good pay under the law. Would they not have enough money to hire tourist camps?

Mr. CREASEY. I know of no law regulating the wages or establishing minimum wages for agricultural workers.

Senator THYE. Do you mean to say these men that come in from offshore under contract with the producers are not under a fixed wage?

Mr. CREASEY. They are. They are foreign workers. But this is designed to take care of the domestic worker.

Senator THYE. In other words, what you are trying to do right here is to establish a chain of motels, as you might refer to it, that will accommodate any transient individual or family as they cross the Nation from corner to corner?

Mr. MISLER. There are certain points where you have a larger concentration of these people, and the shelters would not be on every single overnight stop.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Creasey, suppose we were to establish such motels as you have just described, would it not be necessary to afford the same facilities for foreign labor?

Mr. CREASEY. No.

The CHAIRMAN. For the reason, as I remember, in the convention the Mexicans want the same treatment as is afforded to our own workers. You remember that.

Mr. CREASEY. They want that.

The CHAIRMAN. I say it would be necessary to give them as much as is afforded to our own people.

Mr. CREASEY. They could use these same camps. It would not be necessary to build new camps to take care of any foreign workers, if necessary to use them for that purpose. Of course, for foreign workers, all of their transportation is arranged for, provided for them, either by the Government or by the employer. So that while the foreign worker is in transit he has what might be called a wellregulated, well-planned, and controlled transportation program before him.

Senator AIKEN. Mr. Creasey, you are right in saying the minimum wage itself does not apply to farm labor, but there is the law of competition which comes in very strongly, and so far as I know from here north no farm labor is available for less than the minimum wage. If there is, I have not the slightest idea of where it would be. And unless you had a competitive condition you would not be recruiting farm labor in other sections. anyway. I do not know what they pay in the tobacco fields. My guess is if they were harvesting tobacco now, which they are not, they would not be able to get any labor at all for less than a dollar an hour. And if it is apple picking, they get even more than that. I just do not see why they could not pay for stopping at an overnight place.

Mr. CREASEY. We expect them to pay, Senator, but we also are aware of the fact that competition may create a so-called minimum wage in a particular area. However, I would not want the committee to believe that the majority of American agricultural workers get 75 cents or a dollar an hour, because that figure is decidedly too high. Senator AIKEN. I was thinking in terms of from here north. If there is any less than 75, I would not know where it is.

Senator HOLLAND. In Florida that cannot get them for less than 75 cents an hour.

Senator AIKEN. And the Pacific coast, I think, is over a dollar an hour, is it not; Washington, Oregon, California?

Mr. CREASEY. There are several hundred thousand throughout the southwestern area, particularly in Texas and New Mexico, that are working for less than 50 cents.

Senator YOUNG. Those are not migrant workers, are they?

Mr. CREASEY. They are to an extent, Senator, in that some 80,000 according to a report of the Texas State Employment Commission, migrated from Texas into other States. According to the same Texas State Employment Commission report, they migrated primarily because the wages were so low.

Senator HOLLAND. Mr. Creasey, is this testimony your own personal testimony or is it for the Department of Labor?

Mr. CREASEY. Which do you mean?

Senator HOLLAND. The tourist camps.

Mr. CREASEY. That is from the Department of Labor.

Senator AIKEN. Suppose labor was down to 30, 40 cents an hour in some areas, you would not certify, or would you certify that that area was so desperately in need of labor that they should have imported labor?

Mr. CREASEY. Perhaps we should not.

Senator AIKEN. I am inclined to agree with you. Down to 30 cents an hour would be an indication that there was no shortage of labor there.

Mr. CREASEY. Forty cents is the lowest hourly rate that has been certified, I think, for the last 2 years. The time may be wrong. It might be a shorter period than the last 2 years, but at the present time, anyway, no certifications are processed for less than 40 cents an hour, but there are substantial numbers at 40 cents.

Senator AIKEN. I was jus thinking of what the Senate might say if this carried a proposition for the establishment of too many of these camps. I think there should be places where they can get their information. Whether that be your offices or what offices, I do not know.

Senator THYE. In every State you have employment offices, and you have the field men that will cover the county agent offices, and other centers such as chambers of commerce, And it would seem to

me there is an existing entity there that could very well accommodate you or the Department of Labor in obtaining the information without establishing new agencies that would be a network of public motels all over the country to accommodate a man that goes to one section of the country or another.

Senator AIKEN. What would hinder anybody from stopping at these low-cost accommodations? Would you require them to prove that they were migratory workers?

Mr. CREASEY. Our concept of the program, Senator, would be that when the people arrive at the camp we would process them. We would have people there who would ask them where they came from, where they are going, what kind of work they are seeking, what commitments they have, and so forth. And if we know of a need for workers nearer by, we would try to divert them to some nearby place.

Senator MUNDT. Do you plan to limit these tourist camps to migratory agricultural workers or will they be available to people leaving the Midwest to go to the defense industries of the west coast? Mr. CREASEY. We do not contemplate anything more than the use and benefit of the migratory agricultural workers.

Senator MUNDT. On what basis would you discriminate between the two groups?

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Mr. CREASEY. Just that we have not considered the other group. We have no intention to discriminate against them. We are merely trying to treat this problem alone.

Senator MUNDT. What proof would you demand of a worker leaving South Dakota that he is going west to pick apples in Washington instead of working in a defense industry in Los Angeles?

Mr. CREASEY. I do not suppose there would be any way to obtain any proof in a situation of that kind. We would just have to take his word for it.

Senator MUNDT. Then, actually they would be open to anybody who wants to come if they say they are farm workers.

Mr. CREASEY. If so represented.

Senator MUNDT. How much do you figure this is going to cost the Government each year to provide this network of tourist camps, which of course, would have to be in virtually every State of the Union, because every State has its problem in this field. You say you are going to have a staff of experts to interrogate the men and find out where they would like to work, find out where the jobs are, their ability to pay, and charge them pro rata a night depending on the pay. How much are you going to ask for from the Federal Government to provide this great new horde of employees in this wide network of the national tourist camps?

Mr. CREASEY. I do not know. Certainly, the rates would have. to be uniform with respect to workers. I do not think we would

analyze the individual workers as regards ability to pay.

Senator MUNDT. You would have to come to Congress and say, "Let's put up a Nation-wide tourist camp," without having some idea. of what it would cost. I am curious to know whether this is a $5,000,000,000 program, a $500,000,000 program, or a $10,000,000 program in 48 States. In my State you would need, at least going north and south, 2 series of camps, east and west 3 series of camps, perhaps a total of 12 camps, say, in South Dakota.

the

Mr. CREASEY. We did not plan to that extent. But, of course, question of control of funds, and so forth, is still in Congress, and we would have to present specific plans, the types and kind of housing facilities, and where they would be, and how much the cost would be, and all of that. Even if this authority were granted, we still would have to submit all of that specifically before we had the authority to spend any money. And that is what we had planned. We were offering here only the idea.

Senator MUNDT. Is not the proper time to submit those facts and figures before the amendment is incorporated rather than afterward? Mr. CREASEY. It might be.

The CHAIRMAN. That is what I was going to suggest, Senator Mundt.

Senator MUNDT. I think it would be interesting to have them submit them.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Creasey, in answer to a question from the Senator from Florida, you were unable to give the cost. If you will give us the cost, make an estimate of it, we shall put it in connection with your testimony when we print the record. If you can get that to us by Thursday afternoon or Friday morning, it will be time enough. Senator AIKEN. And some idea of the facilities which you would contemplate.

Mr. CREASEY. We will prepare an analysis and submit it.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Senator MUNDT. And the locations of the camps, too. I would like to know where they will be located.

(The information is as follows:)

PROPOSED OPERATION OF OVERNIGHT REST STOPS FOR MIGRATORY FARM WORKERS AND THEIR FAMILIES

Proposed location (distance apart, 300 to 350 miles):

East coast: Yulee, Fla.; Georgetown, S. C.; Norfolk, Va.; Camden, N. J.1
Middle West: Texarkana, Ark.; Poplar Bluff, Mo.; Decatur, Ill.

Southwest: Van Horn, Tex.; I ordsburg, N. Mex.

Northwest: Weed, Calif.; Wallula, Wash.

Period of operation of overnight rest stops: Rest stops will be operated from approximately April to November with possibile year-around operation in the Southwest.

Rest-stop facilities:

Type of construction: Double-walled frame construction.

Type of sleeping quarters: Sectionalized buildings suitable either for family groups or singles, with cots and mattresses and with sheets and blankets available for a deposit.

Minimum capacity: The minimum-size camp should consist of four 27- by 48-foot buildings for sleeping quarters to accommodate a total of 144 persons, one 16- by 16-foot office building, one 16- by 32-foot utility building for showers, laundry and sanitary facilities and one 16- by 32-foot building for mess and kitchen. In addition, tent stands and tents to accommodate up to 60 more persons should be available.

Cost of construction: The cost of construction the minimum-size rest stop described above will depend on many local factors. While no cost estimate prepared by well-informed construction estimators is available the following is submitted as the best information readily available.

Cost of one minimum rest stop: $70,000 (including construction, utilities cost, and installation and fixtures).

Total cost of 11 proposed rest stops: $770,000.

Management: Each rest stop will be under the management of a bonded camp supervisor whose duties will include camp management and care, giving job information to migrants, fiscal reporting, and reporting of the volume, destination, and time of arrival of migrant crews. It is proposed that receipts derived from nominal charges for camp use shall continue to be available for the operation of overnight rest stops.

Senator HOLLAND. Mr. Chairman, I would like to pursue one more point. If I understood the witness correctly, and I am going to ask him the specific question as to whether I did, his proposal embodies not only setting up of this series of tourist camps, but also of paying the transportation of domestic workers on a parity with the paying of the transportation of the offshore workers or Indian workers who he brought in from Mexico and other places; is that correct?

Mr. CREASEY. That is correct.

Senator HOLLAND. In other words, since you have to pay the transportation of a Mexican worker to work in the beet fields in the Midwest all the way from his home in Mexico, there and back, you feel that you should be prepared to pay the transportation of domestic farm laborers in similar amounts?

Mr. CREASEY. That is correct.

Senator HOLLAND. Then what you envisage is a network of tourist camps extending pretty well all over the Nation and the payment of transportation costs of the migrant agricultural laborers in their travel pretty well all over the Nation; is that correct?

1 Camden, N. J., is only approximately 260 miles from Norfolk, Va., but driving time is slower in the more crowded areas.