excess of the prices paid in recent years, and that evidence satisfactory to the district engineer is given as to actual ownership of the land at the time purchased.

As your board has been informed, the levees on the south bank of Arkansas River head the priority list for work in this district. If we can secure rightsof-way, we will complete the south bank line in about 3 years to the new grade and section. This will afford protection to the entire Tensas Basin as well as Jefferson, Lincoln, and Desha Counties.

My assistants are completing the surveys, including detailed plats and descriptions of the rights-of-way. I am obtaining abstracts of title and endeavoring to negotiate a fair price with the owners. If a reasonable price can be reached, I will ask the owner for permission to proceed with the work under a written guarantee that the United States will pay him the agreed price when the abstract of title is accepted by the Attorney General. If the owner refuses to allow this, then it would be most helpful if your board would purchase the right-of-way, guarantee it to the United States as in the past, and be reimbursed in full value as soon as approval can be officially obtained. Of course, in cases where a reasonable price cannot be reached with the owner, I must ask for condemnation proceedings. I sincerely hope it will not be necessary to go into court against the owners we are trying to protect against future floods.

Will you kindly put this matter before your board and advise me if they will assist where necessary in securing rights-of-way from Jefferson-Lincoln County line to Cypress Creek crossing, being stations 0 to 3511-16. Our needs along this line are about 60 acres per mile. The last prices agreed upon in this general vicinity were those at South Bend, namely, $50 for farm acreage, landside, and $10 for riverside acreage.

Hoping to hear favorably from you at your early convenience, I am in appreciation of the helpful cooperation received in the past from your board, Sincerely yours,

JOHN C. H. LEE,
Major, Corps of Engineers,
District Engineer.

Senator OVERTON. Captain Dean, do you know anything in reference to the negotiations leading up to this resolution in respect to the local levee board taking the position that it was going to ask for reimbursement?

Captain DEAN. I do not know anything about the cases covered by this particular bill. Those are all matters which antedated my time in the New Orleans district.

With respect to certain subsequent cases, I stated that those which were acquired last year, that I personally felt no desire to unload the obligation of acquiring the rights-of-way on the levee districts; that the reason we were asking the levee districts to acquire the rights-of-way was to enable us to get the construction going, and that it was impossible to get the construction going in any other way promptly. In that case the levee district, in passing the resolution, put in a reservation in their resolution stating that they would submit a claim for reimbursement, and we accepted the resolution in that form and went ahead and are building the levees.

In the cases that are now going on, since the Attorney General's opinion, referred to, we have indicated that we will make an immedi ate attempt to pay the levee board a fair price for the right-of-way as soon as they determine what that fair price is, and, in the meantime, so long as they will acquire the right-of-way by resolution of the board under the Louisiana law, and will authorize us to construct a levee on that right-of-way, we are going ahead and building the levee. In those cases I should feel that it was a distinct breach of faith or mistake on my part if we were precluded in any way from

paying for these rights-of-way in the future, provided they are acquired at a fair price.

I may be exceeding my authority in the matter; but, certainly, we are attempting to get the rights-of-way for the levee boards at the present time and pay for those rights-of-way as soon as a fair price is determined upon.

Senator OVERTON. Thank you. Now, Mr. Pressburg, will you resume?

Senator BAILEY. Mr. Chairman, I have to go, and I want to make a motion. I move that the evidence taken here today be printed and two copies forwarded to the engineer who was active in bringing about the contract and the resolutions filed here under date of June 22, 1931, being the resolution

Senator OVERTON (interposing). Being one of the resolutions.
Senator BAILEY. Did you have more than one?
Senator OVERTON. There were 13 of them.

Senator BAILEY. All of the same tenor?

Senator OVERTON. Yes, sir.

Senator BAILEY. Do you want to print them all?
Senator OVERTON. One will be sufficient.

Senator BAILEY. Being the resolutions of the levee board or the board of commissioners for the levee district, and, in view of the evidence produced here, he be requested to make a statement of the facts.

Second, that the evidence as taken be referred to the War Department, with requests as follows: First, that the War Department advise this committee of the method under which the amount arrived at, $652,736.29, was determined; that is, in ascertaining the portion due any party by reason of the location of the right-of-way for the levee on his lands; how was the sum determined due to any particular party? Was it on the basis of the ratio of his land to the proportion taken for the right-of-way, and the ratio applied to the taxassessed value? Second, that the War Department be requested to advise this committee, after reading this evidence, of its views as to the bill. Third, that the evidence be submitted to General Brown, with the request for a statement from him as to matters testified to relating to him, and any utterances ascribed to him, and to his activities in the premises.

All of that is the motion.

Senator OVERTON. Without objection, the motion will be adopted. Now, is it your thought, Senator, to arrest the hearings now until we get these reports?

Senator BAILEY. I will certainly not reach a conclusion until I have heard those gentlemen. They are referred to here as having done this and done that. That is hearsay testimony. I want to know what they say about it, and you cannot try a case until you hear both sides.

Senator OVERTON. Very well. It is unilateral testimony, and, of course, the other side should be heard. Very properly. Do you want to leave now, Senator?

Senator BAILEY. Yes; I am going to ask to be excused, because I think there are some matters coming up at which I wish to be present. Senator OVERTON. I would like you to be present when the other witnesses testify.

Senator BAILEY. I shall read the testimony, but I will never be able to come to a conclusion about this case until I hear what these engineers have to say.

Senator OVERTON. Very well. The resolution is adopted, without objection. We will proceed with the taking of the testimony of Mr. Pressburg. These witnesses wish to return to Louisiana.

Senator BAILEY. Yes. I will read the testimony. If I should leave before you finish, I do not wish you gentlemen to think there is any discourtesy.

Senator OVERTON. Mr. Pressburg, I believe you were testifying to conversations you had with Major Holcombe, and the understanding you had with him at the time of the adoption of the first resolution and the adoption of these remaining 12 other resolutions of similar import. Had you completed your statement in that regard?

Mr. PRESSBURG. I think so, Senator. You say 12 other resolutions. I do not say there were 12. Sometimes 1 or 2 levee projects were grouped, but it covered 13 levee projects.

Senator BAILEY. What was the name of the engineer?

Mr. PRESSBURG. Maj. W. H. Holcombe.

Senator OVERTON. What was the levee situation at the time on the south bank of the Red River?

Mr. PRESSBURG. None of the levees on the Red River in our levee district were up to Government grade and section.

Senator OVERTON. What was the condition of the levee that protected the city of Alexandria?

Mr. PRESSBURG. I would say that it was in good condition except that the size was inadequate in view of the 1927 flood.

Senator OVERTON. About what was the population of the city of Alexandria?

Mr. PRESSBURG. Possibly about 25,000 in the city itself.

Senator OVERTON. Did the levee board feel that it was necessary to proceed as rapidly as possible with the construction of those levees? Mr. PRESSBURG. Yes, sir; and the inadequacy of the levee system was shown later in 1930 high water, and in 1932, on the Red River. It was in 1932, I believe, that we had the highest stage of water that we have ever had at Alexandria.

Senator OVERTON. Had not those levees been rebuilt and had overflowed at the time of the high water?

Mr. PRESSBURG. We feel sure that had not a number of the levees between Alexandria and Monclain been rebuilt that it would have been impossible to have conducted a successful campaign on the entire line against high water.

Senator OVERTON. The levees on the south bank of the Red River were to bear an additional burden in the event of carrying into execution the Bayou Boeuf Basin flow away, wasn't it? The levees up to the Arkansas line and the waters turned loose at Bayou Boeuf Basin, would that cause high water at Red River or not?

Mr. PRESSBURG. I would say yes, on account of coming across the end of the river and cutting off the flow, would have given us a higher stage, because of the high water and not having such run-off as usual.

Senator OVERTON. Thank you. Mr. Hudson, will you take the stand?

STATEMENT OF WILLIAM C. HUDSON

Senator OVERTON. Please identify yourself by stating your name and residence.

Mr. HUDSON. W. C. Hudson, of Alexandria, La., president of the Red River, Atchafalaya, and Bayou Boeuf levee district.

Senator OVERTON. Please state whether or not the levee board that you represent was very active, immediately following the enactment of the flood-control act, to have the levees built to standard grade and section on Red River, and, where necessary, the old levees be abandoned and new levees be constructed farther away from the river and the whole line of levees be strengthened?

Mr. HUDSON. We were in great fear that our levees would be overtopped by the high waters, and it would have been if we had not raised quite a lot of them, because the water went in 1932-in February it went a foot and six tenths above any previous water.

Senator OVERTON. Did you take that matter up with the district engineer of the United States Government, asking that this work be expedited?

Mr. HUDSON. I did.

Senator OVERTON. Did they undertake to go ahead with the work and to acquire the rights-of-way for the levee construction?

Mr. HUDSON. They acquired part of them by direct purchase, and then they finally quit. They said that the could not get the rightsof-way without paying big prices for them, and asked the levee board to buy them.

Senator OVERTON. Was anything said about reimbursement by either one of you, either the Chief Engineer or the representatives of the levee board?

Mr. HUDSON. We reserved the right in that resolution to ask pay. It was understood by Major Holcombe and all of the engineers.

Senator OVERTON. That was the first resolution that you adopted. Mr. HUDSON. Not the first one. The second one. The first one we adopted was that the responsibility was the Government's, and Major Holcombe would not accept that, and we had to put in the words "without cost."

Senator OVERTON. Are you referring to the resolution which bears "without cost as the one that contains the reservation?

Mr. HUDSON. Yes, sir; that is the one that has the reservation.
Senator OVERTON. Are you quite sure of that?

Mr. HUDSON. Look at the first resolution. I think it is in there. Senator OVERTON. Very well. That is your construction of the resolution. But in addition to that, did you have any conversation yourself with Mr. Holcombe?

Mr. HUDSON. We had a conference with them, together with Mr. Jacobs and Mr. Pressburg and Mr. Melanson and myself.

Senator OVERTON. What position did you take as representing the local levee board in reference to being paid for these rights-of-way, when you acquired them, in that conference?

Mr. HUDSON. I took the position that we should be paid for them, that the levee board should be paid for the rights-of-way.

Senator OVERTON. What did Mr. Holcombe say in reference to your making a subsequent claim for reimbursement?

Mr. HUDSON. He said he thought it would be paid. He did not say absolutely it would.

Senator OVERTON. Did he understand that you were to make a claim for reimbursement?

Mr. HUDSON. He certainly did.

Senator OVERTON. And in addition to understanding that you would make a claim for reimbursement, he expressed the opinion that you would be reimbursed?

Mr. HUDSON. He did.

Senator OVERTON. I think that about covers the case, until we can get that report from the War Department. There is one thing, though, that I want to ask you about, and that is this. What is the financial condition of the local levee board? Was it in a position to pay cash for these rights-of-way?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.

Senator OVERTON. What did it do?

Mr. HUDSON. We issued certificates of indebtedness, and paid with those certificates.

Senator OVERTON. Have those certificates been paid?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir.

Senator OVERTON. Has the levee board defaulted on them?

Mr. HUDSON. No, sir; not so far. We have defaulted for a while, but afterwards paid the interest up.

Senator OVERTON. I will introduce in evidence a letter written by John H. Overton, member of the Senate Committee on Commerce, and Riley J. Wilson, chairman of the House Committee on Flood Control, to the Secretary of War, of date May 15, 1933, presenting to the Secretary of War the question as to whether or not the Federal Government should pay for the rights-of-way on the Arkansas, Red River, and Atchafalaya.

(Matter referred to is as follows:)

EXHIBIT 3

MAY 15, 1933.

Subject: Legal obligation of the Federal Government to pay for leves rights-ofway on the Atchafalaya River and on the south bank of the Red River. Hon. GEORGE H. DERN,

Secretary of War. Washington, D.C.

DEAR MR. SECRETARY: We are presenting to you for your consideration the direction by you that the United States Government shall pay for rights-ofway necessary for the construction of levees on the south bank of the Red River and the construction of main levees and protection levees on the Atchafalaya River in the State of Louisiana, in the execution of and pursuant to the provisions of the act of Congress approved May 15, 1928, entitled "An act for the control of floods on the Mississippi River and its tributaries and for other purposes (Public Law 391, 70th Cong.).

There is no question in our judgment that the act of Congress imposes upon the Federal Government the legal obligation to pay for such rights-of-way on the Atchafalaya and on the south bank of Red River. In the execution of this project, the Federal Government began by acquiring and paying for these rights-of-way. It discovered, however, that the rights-of-way could be acquired by the local authorities, to wit, the levee boards, more speedily and more cheaply than they could be obtained by the Federal Government. The National Government has, therefore, of late been requiring the local levee boards of the State of Louisiana to supply the rights-of-way. These boards have not received reimbursement from the Government for the rights-of-way so acquired on the