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MR. WATERS. Mr. President: From the vote taken, it appears to be the sense of the Convention that a majority vote has power to take up a motion that has been defeated. Now, the rule as it reads, allows this privilege only on questions that may have been indefinitely postponed. There are other questions than indefinite postponement. If it is the sense of this Convention that a majority may take up a proposition that has been defeated, I now move to amend the rule by striking out the words "indefinitely postponed," and insert "when a question is lost," so as to read: "When a question is lost on any final vote," etc.

MR. FREEMAN. I think that comes more properly under the next section, under the head of reconsideration.

MR. WATERS. It is germane to this very section. I see no reason why a matter that has been defeated by indefinite postponement can be again considered, when a matter that has been defeated by any other kind of a final vote cannot come in on the same footing. Why should questions that have been indefinitely postponed have this preference over matters that have been lost by any other kind of a final vote? I cannot see the justice of it.

THE CHAIR. The question is on the adoption of the amendment of the gentleman from San Bernardino.

MR. TINNIN. Mr. President: By the vote taken it is clearly the established ruling of the Convention that a majority can take up a question that has been finally disposed of. Now, fully concur with the gentleman from San Bernardino, Mr. Waters, that there should be no privileged matters in this body. Now, we have decided that when a question has been indefinitely postponed, it can be again taken up by a majority vote, and why should we require a two-thirds vote to take up propositions that have been defeated by other means? I don't see how the house can do otherwise than sustain this amendment, and be consistThe Convention cannot surely go back on its own act. THE CHAIR. The question is on the amendment proposed by Mr. Waters.

ent.

MR. DUDLEY, of Solano. Mr. President: Now, the effect of the vote is not as represented by the gentleman. It does not make it a privileged question, for at any time, if any question is lost on one day, if it is not lost on a motion to indefinitely postpone, it may come up upon a simple motion, and may be considered on the following day after being voted down.

MR. BEERSTECHER. As I understand the gentleman's amendment from San Bernardino, it is where there has been a final vote upon any question. Now, the vote on indefinite postponement is not a final vote in any sense of the term, and I shall vote against his amendment.

MR. ESTEE. Mr. President: I think the motion to indefinitely postpone is one of the most final votes it is possible to have, and I hope now, if the majority of this Convention wants to control these matters, after they have been indefinitely postponed, it will be true to itself and say that on every final vote when a question is lost, it shall be considered again by a bare majority; and that is but fair, because some of the gravest questions may come under this head. Now, if we adopt this report, and adopt Cushing's Manual, we will be in this position: when a question comes up, and is postponed indefinitely, it can be brought up again the next day by a bare majority, but when a question has been defeated by any other kind of a final vote, a majority cannot bring it up again. Let us have uniformity in the rules, and if it is the intention that a majority can reexamine a question after it is lost, let that rule apply to all questions alike.

MR. BEERSTECHER. I call attention to section thirty-seven of the report of the committee: "On the day succeeding that on which a final vote on any proposition or resolution concerning the Constitution, or other resolution, has been taken, said vote may be reconsidered on motion of any member, provided notice of intention to move such reconsideration shall have been given on the day on which such final vote was taken, by a member voting with the majority; and it shall not be in order for any member to move a reconsideration on the day on which the final vote was taken." Now, it seems to me, as suggested by the gentlemen from Sacramento, that the motion of the gentleman, Mr. Waters, ought to refer to that section and not to section thirty-six. I think we should have a clear, positive, distinct declaration of the position a motion to indefinitely postpone shall occupy in the rules of this body, and it seems to me this is an attempt to get round the vote just taken. We desire to have a distinct declaration of what position this occupies, and if we desire a further declaration on other propositions, let it be inserted in section thirty-seven. I hope the gentleman's amendment will be voted down.

MR. HERRINGTON. Mr. President: I hope this amendment will be voted down. I desire to offer a substitute to take its place, to be added at the end of the section, as follows: "Provided, such questions as do not directly relate to the Constitution shall not be again introduced except by a two-thirds vote."

THE CHAIR. The gentleman had better wait until Mr. Waters' amendment is disposed of. There is already an amendment to an

amendment.

The amendment offered by Mr. Waters was lost, on a standing voteayes forty-six, noes fifty-four.

THE CHAIR. The question is now on the amendment proposed by Mr. Herrington.

MR. HERRINGTON. Mr. President: What we are endeavoring to get at, as I understand it, is to preserve the main important rights of the body in the framing of the Constitution, and at the same time get rid of as much useless labor as possible. By cutting off the reconsideration of foolish motions, relating to unimportant subjects, you do avoid very much useless labor. The way the rule now stands we have preserved our rights under the circumstances, and it leaves us to use our best judgment as to whether a motion, having once been disposed of, shall be again brought up; but we are not precluded by our own rules from doing as we may see fit. That is our right-it is the dearest right which this Convention has-and I am glad that this has been established as clearly and distinctly as it has been. By reason of this amendment we have secured all the advantages that we could have secured by the original form of the rule in relation to the minor subjects coming before the Convention, while we have preserved the most important rights in relation to subjects of great importance.

THE CHAIR. The question is on the amendment proposed by the gentleman from Santa Clara, Mr. Herrington.

The amendment was rejected, on a standing vote-ayes forty-two, noes sixty-two.

THE CHAIR. The question is now on the original rule as amended. MR. BLACKMER. Mr. President: I desire to offer an amendment. Strike out the first clause as far as the word "postpone," and substitute the following in lieu thereof: "When a question has been disposed of, either by indefinite postponement or by any other final vote," so that the rule will read: Rule 36.-When a question has been disposed of, either by indefinite postponement, or by any other final vote, it shall not again be introduced."

THE CHAIR. That same proposition was contained in the amendment proposed by the gentleman from San Bernardino, Mr. Waters, and has been voted down. MR. BLACKMER. Mr. President: It hardly comes under the same clause. I think by comparing them there will be found a radical difference in the two propositions. THE CHAIR. The question is on the amendment proposed by Mr.

Blackmer.

MR. HEUSTIS. If the gentleman will allow me; I understand that question has already been disposed of when the house refused to adopt the amendment of the gentleman from Santa Clara.

THE CHAIR. The Chair will hold that it is a little different. I think it is in order.

MR. FREUD. I hope, Mr. President, the amendment will prevail. MR. FREEMAN. I hope the amendment will not prevail. We have two rules now, one on indefinite postponement and one on reconsideration. If we can dispose of this one on indefinite postponement then we can take up the next one, in relation to reconsideration, which is embraced in rule thirty-seven. This amendment should be voted down, and if necessary it can be considered when we come to rule thirty-seven. MR. BLACKMER. The question of reconsideration has this difficulty in it, when you take it upon this proposition, that the motion to reconsider must be given notice of immediately after the passage of the measure, and it does not provide for a change in the views and opinions of the Convention after the lapse of any considerable period of time. After one day, then the matter of reconsideration is of no avail whatever, and it seems to me the only way out of this difficulty is to pass this amendment.

MR. FREEMAN. merely rise to say in reply that an amendment can be offered to rule thirty-seven which can provide for the method of notice. There is no reason why notice should be given to reconsider on the same day. On the other hand the Convention may have rule thirty-s 7-seven amended so that notice of reconsideration may be given at any time when it sees proper, and we can better regulate these matters then.

The question being on the amendment proposed by Mr. Blackmer, it was lost on a standing vote-ayes thirty-four, noes sixty-eight. The rule as amended was then adopted, reading as follows: Rule 36.-When a question is indefinitely postponed it shall not again be introduced during the session of the Convention, except by a majority vote, to be decided without debate.

Rule 37.-On the day succeeding that on which a final vote on any proposition or resolution concerning the Constitution, or other resolution, has been taken, said vote may be reconsidered on motion of any member; provided, notice of intention to move such reconsideration shall have been given on the day on which such final vote was taken, by a member voting with the majority; and it shall not be in order for any member to move a reconsideration on the day on which such final vote was taken. Such motion of reconsideration shall have precedence over every other motion, except a motion to adjourn. No notice of reconsideration shall be in order on the day preceding the last day of the session.

MR. FREEMAN. Mr. President: I desire to offer an amendment to rule thirty-seven: Strike out all down to the word "such," and insert as follows: "At any time after the final vote on any proposition or resolution concerning the Constitution, or other resolution, has been taken, the vote may be reconsidered on motion of any member who voted with the majority, provided, it shall not be in order for any member to move a reconsideration without giving one day's notice of such motion." The amendment was rejected and the rule was adopted.

Rule 38.-It shall be in order for any member or members to protest in writing against action of the Convention, and have such protest entered upon the minutes.

Adopted.

Rule 39.-A question of privilege shall be entitled to supersede other business; but when a member brings forward such question, he shall first present his complaint, either verbally or in writing; and the presiding officer shall decide, in the first instance, whether such statement, however brought forward, involves a question of privilege. If such decision shall be in favor of the question of privilege, the member may then make such observations as may be pertinent to the question of privilege, and may submit such resolution or motion as he may desire for the consideration of the Convention.

Adopted.

Rule 40. The author of a motion, proposition, or resolution, shall have the privilege of closing the debate, unless the previous question has been sustained. MR. ESTEE. I think that should be amended so as to read, the author of a motion or the Chairman of a committee. The point I wish to make is this: that under our rules the committees will present most of the questions for the consideration of the Convention, and it will be hard to determine who the author is. I make no motion, I only throw this out as a suggestion.

The rule was adopted.

Rule 41.-Every member, when about to speak, shall rise and respectfully address the President, shall confine himself to the question under debate, and avoid personality, and shall. sit down when he is finished. No member shall speak out of his place without leave of the President. MR. EDGERTON. Does that read "is finished" or "has finished?" Is the Clerk reading from the original notes? If it is that way, I hope the word "is" will be changed to "has."

The rule was adopted.

duced, and then referred, without debate, to an appropriate committee.

But

MR. LAINE. Mr. President: I desire to offer an amendment to rules fifty-one and fifty-two. The object of the committee in preparing these two rules seems to have been to simplify the work of the Convention. In my judgment they have confused it, and it will take weeks to introduce a very small amount of matter. In other words, every proposition must be written out separately and introduced. There are a number of members who have prepared drafts of the Constitution with some care. They may contain valuable matter, and they may not. having devoted some study to them it is proper that they should be introduced in this condition, that the press and the people of the State may know what is contained in them. They must see the instrument together in all its parts, because, in my estimation, it will be perfectly useless to send the Bill of Rights to one committee and the Judicial Department to another, and so on, without having some knowledge of the whole instrument as an instrument. In other words, we are reconstructing the whole political structure, and it must be a house complete in all its parts, and all its chambers and divisions must be in harmony. In other words, put it together as reasonable architects, and in order to do that we must see the instrument together; and if gentlemen desire to offer amendments to the instrument it will be necessary to have it all together, in order to see how they will fit and harmonize. In my judgment that will simplify the work; if not, these gentlemen who have prepared Constitutions will have to split them apart, and it will require a long time to introduce them section by section and article by article. There will be a great deal of confusion if this Convention refuses to do so. In this way I cannot see any difficulty whatever. For that reason we adopt that rule in Congress in reference to the President's ernor's Message. They are not cut up and the part relating to one subject sent to this committee and another to another. The document must be considered in its entirety. Let the Constitutions that are introduced be printed and distributed among the members. Then if it is desirable to have the different articles considered by different committees it can be done, but the document will be before each committee and they can see the relation that the parts bear to one another. As far as I am individually concerned, if these rules are adopted in this shape, I shall simply offer all the propositions to the committee and not to the Convention, because it will impose too much labor. I offer to amend as follows: Amend rule fifty-one to read as follows:

Rule 42. No member speaking shall be interrupted by another, but Message, and in the Legislative Assemblies in reference to the Govby rising up to call to order. Adopted.

Rule 43.-No member shall speak more than twice on one question without first obtaining leave of the Convention, nor more than once until other members who have not spoken shall speak, if they desire to. MR. GREGG. I move to amend by inserting after the word "twice" the following words: "No member shall speak more than twice nor more than thirty minutes at one time upon the same question."

MR. ESTEE. I hope that will not be adopted so early in the session. There will be some of the gravest questions to come before this Convention, and there are gentlemen probably prepared to come before this Convention and give us a great deal of information, and certainly it would be unusual to limit them to thirty minutes.

MR. GREGG. The purpose is simply to cut off useless debate.
The amendment was rejected.

MR. BARBOUR. I move to amend the rule by adding at the end of the rule, "A majority of the Convention may rescind or suspend this rule." I don't think it would be right to require a two-third vote. The amendment was rejected, and the rule was adopted. Rule 44.--If any member be called to order for offensive words spoken in debate, the person calling him to order shall report the words excepted to, and they shall be taken down in writing at the Secretary's table; and no member shall be held to answer or be subject to censure of the Convention for language used in debate if any member has spoken, or other business has intervened, after the words spoken and before exception to them shall have been taken.

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Adopted.

Rule 46.-If any member in speaking or otherwise transgress the rules of the Convention, the President shall, or any member may, call to order; in which case, the member so called to order shall immediately sit down, unless permitted to explain; and if called to order by a member, such member shall immediately state the point of order. If the point of order be sustained by the Chair, the member shall not be allowed to proceed; but if it be not sustained, then he shall be permitted to go on. Every such decision from the Chair shall be subject to an appeal to the Convention, but no discussion of a question of order shall be allowed unless an appeal be taken from a decision of the Chair. Adopted.

Rule 47.—When two or more members shall rise at once, the President shall decide who is first to speak.

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Adopted.

Rule 50.-Every member presenting to the Convention a petition, memorial, or remonstrance, shall indorse his name thereon, together with a brief statement of the nature and object of the instrument. Adopted.

Rule 51.-Propositions and resolutions proposing matter to be incorporated in the Constitution shall be prefaced with a title briefly indicating the subject to which they refer. They shall be in writing, on legal cap paper, or printed, and shall be numbered by the Secretary in the order in which they are introduced.

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Propositions and resolutions proposing matters to be incorporated into the Constitution, or proposing an entire draft of a Constitution, or of any separate article or section, shall be in writing on legal cap paper, signed by the member offering the same, and shall be numbered by the Secretary in the order in which they are introduced.”

THE CHAIR. The question is on the adoption of the amendment offered by the gentleman from Santa Clara, Mr. Laine. MR. EDGERTON. Mr. President: I regard those two rules as among the most important, as far as they relate to the procedure of this body. The gentleman from Santa Clara, Mr. Laine, tells us that he has been to a great deal of labor in preparing drafts of a Constitution, and he moves to amend so that an entire Constitution may be sent up. Now, it will have to be cut up and sent to the several committees, and the question is, who shall do this? Everything sent up has to be sent to appropriate committees, and who is to determine what committees it shall go to? I think there are about thirty committees, and if the entire document is to go to the committees, somebody has got to rummage through it and see which goes to this committee, and which to that. Now, the course of procedure marked out in those two rules is this: if anybody has a proposition to make, it shall be prefaced with the proper title, read once when sent up, and then referred to a committee. When it comes from the committee it is read again, and then goes to the general file, as provided for in rule fifty-three, and then it is open to debate. Here is a resolution that such and such a provision be inserted in the Legislative Department. It is headed so the Secretary knows what committee to refer it to, and when it comes back it is placed under that head.

MR. LAINE. It seems to me that every member of this Convention would know what the Bill of Rights was, what the article on revenue and taxation was, and all the various articles of the Constitution, as well as if there were memoranda attached, because the draft of the Constitution is prepared with reference to that matter. I can see none of this difficulty. It will take weeks the other way to introduce these propositions, if they have to be prepared article by article. It will take six weeks to get anything into this Convention to work upon. MR. BIGGS. I am in hopes this amendment will be adopted. Every member will know what committee he is on. I hope this Convention will adopt it.

MR. HAGER. Mr. President: This is a matter of much greater importance than it seems at first glance. Now, we have a great many standing committees, how many I do not know, probably thirty. Each committee is charged with certain of these branches. No one committee is charged with the whole matter, and the rule proposed here, as I understand it, is that when a proposition is introduced by any member it must be referred to the proper committee. Now, suppose a gentleman gets up here and offers an entire Constitution, to what committee must that Constitution be referred? It is not a single proposition, and the member who has prepared it may himself divide it up into as many parts as are necessary. I do not see as it is necessary that the propositions should be on legal cap paper. I do not see any need of that. The next rule says that the propositions shall be read once and referred to appropriate committees. That is the correct method. No one committee should have charge of the entire Constitution, and they should come here in separate propositions, and be referred to the several committees who have charge of the various subjects. Otherwise we will never get to any conclusion. I think my friend from Santa Clara, Mr. Laine, is

wrong in his conclusions, and that the amendment ought not to be adopted.

The amendment proposed by Mr. Laine was rejected.
The rules, fifty-one and fifty-two, were adopted.

Rule 53.-All propositions and resolutions embracing matter proposed to be incorporated in the Constitution, reported by a standing or special committee, shall be read when reported, and shall be placed on a general file, to be kept by the Secretary, in the order in which they are reported. They shall be taken from the file and acted upon in the order in which they are placed thereon, unless otherwise ordered by the Convention; provided, that engrossed propositions and resolutions shall be placed at the head of the file, in the order in which they are received. Two hundred and forty copies of the file for each day shall be printed. Adopted.

Rule 54.-No committee shall sit during the session of the Convention without leave.

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MR. WHITE. I move to amend, that the President shall not preside in the Committee of the Whole-that he shall appoint a member to preside. MR. TINNIN. The object of this committee in fixing it that way was to expedite business. That has been the custom in the Senate of this State for years, and has been found to work well, and I can see no reason why it should be changed.

MR. BEERSTECHER. The only objection I see to the section as it stands now is this: it provides that the regular President presiding over the Committee of the Whole shall report. Now, who is he to report to when the Committee of the Whole resolves itself back into Convention? The Chairman of the Committee of the Whole makes a report of the work done in the committee. Now, if the President of the Convention is Chairman of the committee, who is he going to make his report to? MR. ESTEE. Why, it is made to the Convention. This has been the practice in your Senate here for years. The Chairman merely rises and states to the Convention what has transpired in the Committee of the Whole, that they have had under consideration so and so, and report it back with amendments, recommending that they be adopted. The amendment was rejected, and the rule was adopted.

Rule 56.-The rules of the Convention shall be observed in Committee of the Whole, so far as they may be applicable, except for limiting the times of speaking, and except that the ayes and noes shall not be taken, and that the previous question shall not be moved. Adopted.

Rule 57.-A motion that the committee rise shall always be in order, and shall be decided without debate.

Adopted.

Rule 58.-Every order or resolution which proposes an alteration in the Constitution, and all reports of committees appointed to consider the propriety and expediency of making any alteration therein, shall be considered in Committee of the Whole before they are debated and finally acted on in Convention.

MR. GREGG. I offer an amendment to the amendment: "No member shall receive pay for more than two days absence at one time, except the absence is occasioned by sickness, or by committee work, or other business of the Convention. But pay shall not be allowed a member for more than ten absent days during the term of the Convention."

THE CHAIR. The question is on the amendment to the amendment. MR. WATERS. I rise to a point of order. The salary of members of this Convention is fixed by law. We cannot by any vote of ours, even by a two thirds-vote, adopt any rule affecting the rights of any member on this floor as regards the salary he shall receive. We have no power to say how much we shall receive. That is a matter fixed by law. MR. WEBSTER. I believe in establishing this rule. It has been the rule, I know, that members of the Legislature from time immemorial have drawn pay, not only for week days when they were not in session, but for Sundays. I say it is a wrong principle. It is not the way we conduct our own private business, and even if the Legislature has established the rule for us, we should establish a different rule. We don't employ men to work for us by the day and then pay them a salary for the days that they don't work. We don't employ carpenters by the day and pay them the same wages for Sundays that they get on week days. We have no more right to our pay for Sunday than the carpenter has." hold that we should observe the same rule in the service of the State as we would follow in conducting our private affairs. It is wrong in principle, and if precedents are numerous we propose to dispense with precedents, and act independently according to what we believe to be right. THE CHAIR. The point of order is well taken: the Legislature has provided for the compensation of the members of this Convention. MR. REYNOLDS. I offer an amendment to add at the end of the rule. MR. MCFARLAND. I understand the ruling of the Chair to be that the rule itself, as proposed by the committee, is out of order.

THE CHAIR. The Chair sustained the point of order under section five of the Act calling the Convention: "The delegates shall receive the same per diem and mileage as members of the Legislature." MR. STEDMAN. Does that strike the rule out? THE CHAIR.

Yes, sir.

MR. STEDMAN. Then, sir, I move to insert my motion, made this morning, as rule sixty-five. It is not quite the proper place to insert it, but I will offer it:

"Rule 65.-All members shall vote on every question, unless excused by the Convention." Adopted.

MR. REYNOLDS.

be out of order?

Do I understand that rule sixty-five is decided to

THE CHAIR. Rule sixty-five, as amended by Mr. Stedman, is adopted. We are now considering rule sixty-six.

MR. REYNOLDS. If rule sixty-five is ruled out of order, I desire to appeal from the decision of the Chair.

THE CHAIR. It is too late. The Secretary will read rule sixty-six. MR. BARBOUR. We never had a chance to vote on this rule sixtyfive. We didn't have a chance to vote on it.

THE CHAIR. The Chair will state the proposition.

MR. BARBOUR. I maintain that this Convention can control the per diem of its members; and I should like to have a chance to be heard. THE CHAIR. The point of order was made by the gentleman from San Bernardino, Mr. Waters, that this Convention had no right to regulate the per diem and mileage of its members, the Legislature having Adopted. fixed it; and the Chair held the point to be well taken. Then the Rule 59.-The rules of parliamentary practice contained in "Cush-gentleman from San Francisco, Mr. Stedman, offered a new rule, to take ing's Law and Practice of Legislative Assemblies," shall govern the the place of rule sixty-five; which was adopted. We are now considerConvention in all cases to which they are applicable, and in which theying rule sixty-six; and the Chair will hold that the appeal comes too are not inconsistent with the standing rules and orders of the Con- late. vention.

Adopted.

Rule 60.-No standing rule or order of the Convention shall be rescinded or changed without a vote of two thirds and one day's notice being given of the motion therefor; but a rule or order may be suspended temporarily by a vote of two thirds of the members present, except rules fifty, fifty-one, fifty-two, fifty-three, and fifty-five.

MR. WYATT. I move to amend rule sixty so as to make it conform with rule thirty-six, on the question of indefinite postponement. The motion prevailed, and the rule as amended was adopted. Rule 61.-When the reading of a paper is called for, except petitions and memorials, and the same is objected to by any member, it shall be determined by a vote of the Convention, without debate.

Adopted.

MR. ESTEE. I do not suppose that the ruling of the Chair will interfere with bringing it up again for consideration. I will read what the law says:

"The delegates to the Convention shall receive the same per diem and mileage as members of the Legislature: provided, no compensation shall be allowed delegates after the expiration of one hundred days. No pay shall be allowed for any recess longer than three days at one time.'

I think the Chair is wrong about that. I think the Convention has a perfect right to regulate it, by law, as to the manner in which members shall be paid. What if a member should leave and be absent for the whole term?

THE CHAIR. The Convention has power to send for any member who absents himself, or he can be expelled.

MR. HAGER. The statute as read by the Chair, and referred to by

Rule 62.-In filling up blanks the least sum or number and shortest the gentleman from San Francisco, Mr. Estee, is all right, but there is time shall be first put. Adopted.

Rule 63.-No member or other person shall remain by the Secretary's desk while the ayes and noes are being called, or while the votes are being counted.

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Adopted.

Rule 65.-No member shall receive pay for any week day on which he has not actually attended the Convention, except in case of sickness, or when he is absent on committee duty.

MR. WEBSTER. I move to strike out the word "week" and insert after the word "duty" the further words, "days of actual session," so as to read as follows: "No member shall receive pay for any day on which he has not actually attended the Convention, except in case of sickness, or when he is absent on committee duty on days of actual session."

another provision here, that raises a question which has not been sufficiently considered, perhaps. Another portion says, "the Convention may adopt such rules and regulations for its own government as a majority of its members may determine." Now, there is full power to make regulations as to pay of members, or any other matters in the enforcing of discipline. We cannot increase the per diem, but we may say when it shall be cut off, by a rule which a majority may adopt. MR. FILCHER. I rise to a point of order. The discussion is out of order, as the Chair has decided, and there is no appeal pending. THE CHAIR. The point of order is well taken.

Rule 66.-Every member, before availing himself of a leave of absence, shall deposit with the Secretary all papers then in his possession belonging to the Convention.

MR. BARBOUR. I move that the rules be suspended for the purpose of allowing an appeal on the ruling of the Chair. Lost.

Rule sixty-six was adopted.

Rule 67.-No smoking shall be allowed within the hall of the Convention during the time of its session.

Adopted.

Rule 68.-The hall of the Convention shall not be used for any public or private business other than that of the Convention, except by unaniAdopted.

mous consent.

Rule 69.-No increase of pay, nor any extra pay, shall be allowed any officer or attaché of the Convention, by resolution or otherwise, except by unanimous consent. Adopted.

Rule 70.-No proposition for additional help in any clerical or other department of the Convention shall be entertained except by resolution, in writing, therefor, and before final action by the Convention thereon such resolution shall be referred to the Committee on Mileage and Contingent Expenses, which committee shall inquire into the necessity therefor and the amount of compensation proper, if the same shall be required, and report without unnecessary delay; and upon receipt of such report the Convention shall forthwith proceed to consider and vote upon the passage of the resolution.

Adopted.

Rule 71.-Five hundred copies of each proposition or resolution embodying matter proposed to be introduced into the Constitution shall be printed.

MR. ROLFE. I do not wish to be captious, but it seems to me this will involve an enormous amount of unnecessary printing. I have no doubt but what on the first day that we get to the real business of the Convention there will be two or three hundred propositions introduced, some of them very long, and they will all have to be printed. I am not prepared now to offer a substitute, but I am prepared to vote against that rule.

MR. ANDREWS. I move to strike out "five hundred" and insert "four hundred and eighty."

The motion prevailed, and the rule as amended was adopted.

MR. HEUSTIS. I was on my feet before the motion was put, and I ask leave now to propose an amendment to the rule. My amendment is simply to carry out the suggestions of the gentleman from San Bernardino, Mr. Rolfe. It will save an enormous expense. I propose to add the words "when ordered by the Convention."

THE CHAIR. It is moved to amend so as to read "four hundred and eighty copies when ordered by the Convention." MR. EDGERTON. The gentleman will observe that the rule limits all this to matter proposed to be incorporated in the Constitution.

all be printed. I am satisfied we cannot act intelligently on this matter unless we can know what is contained in each proposition. We cannot go to the desk to look at the original every time we want to know anything about it. We must have printed copies for our own use, or we might as well abandon the work at once. hope this rule will stand, and that every proposition, if it is of importance enough to be considered at all, will be printed for the use of the members.

MR. AYERS. Before the amendment and the rule are referred to the Committee on Printing, I would like to be informed how the Committee on Printing is going to make an intelligent report to this Convention, as to the probable cost-in what way they are going to arrive at it. There may be one hundred different drafts of Constitutions made here. The propositions that will come before this Convention will be numerous, and there is no way by which we can get at them unless we know something about the number of propositions and Constitutions that will be introduced. MR. LARKIN. As far as that matter, I think it is plain. We must have them printed. I appeal to any gentleman, if a legislative body of this importance could act intelligently on propositions of this kind, unless they are printed and laid before the members, so that they may study them. It is the most important part of our duties, and it is right that they shall be printed, so that the people of the State may understand what we are doing here.

MR. HILBORN. I don't object to that. All I ask is that we shall, before we act, inquire into the probable cost, so that gentlemen may vote intelligently upon it. MR. VAN DYKE. I cannot see any necessity for printing every proposition that is introduced here by every member. The propositions must be reported by committees before they can be considered, and I cannot see the necessity of printing this great mass of stuff without regard to what it contains. We have adopted a rule that you cannot consider a proposition until it has been to a committee, and the argument in favor of printing would only apply to reports of committees. I Propose an amendment to this rule, as follows:

THE CHAIR. The question is on referring it to the Committee on Printing.

MR. MCCALLUM. The question is on reference. I shall vote for the Committee on Rules. The argument in favor of it is, I believe, that four reference, because I am opposed to the proposition as presented by the hundred and eighty copies should be printed to be circulated among the people of this State. You might print four hundred and eighty thousand in that form and they would not reach the people of this State. of the State, and thus they will reach the people in all parts. But these These things will be printed every morning by the enterprising press

MR. HUESTIS. Suppose there are ten distinct propositions to be embodied in the Constitution, it will involve five thousand documents. MR. EDGERTON. I move the rules be suspended then. MR. LARKIN. I am in favor that every article affecting this Consti-are to be for the use of the Convention, and two hundred and forty copies tution shall be printed so as to be circulated among the people of this of each will be sufficient. There are three or four enterprising daily State, because very few of the people in this State take the Sacramento papers in this State, each one of which will contain every one of these papers. They should be circulated among the people of this State, and propositions as fast as they are presented. the only way is to print a certain number of copies, and five hundred copies is low enough. It is few enough, and every proposition should be printed.

MR. ESTEE. It strikes me, Mr. President, that the time required by this Convention to discuss a motion every time it is made will cost more to the people of this State than the printing will amount to. Now the Constitution, when adopted, will not be one tenth or one twentieth as large as the statutes, and it is infinitely more important to the people of this State to know what these amendments are than to know what some bill in the Legislature is that perhaps relates to a road law, or questions of that kind. hope the rule will be adopted as amended, for four hundred and eighty copies. It has been suggested that these things will be published by the newspapers. That is true, to some extent; but if you have these things printed in this way, they can be sent to the local papers in the various counties in the State, and thus they will be brought to the notice of the people, and they will know what is going on here. MR. HILBORN. Mr. President: This is a matter in which we should make haste slowly. I am afraid this printing will make a hole in the appropriation which will startle us. I understand there are eight or ten or twenty complete drafts of a Constitution, and all this will have to be printed if this rule is adopted, and I think before we proceed with this matter we should make some inquiry as to what the expense will be, and whether it is necessary-where these parties have already got up these drafts and had them printed and widely circulated-whether it is necessary for us to print them over again, is a matter of serious consideration at this time, and I think it is better to refer this matter to a committee to investigate the probable cost. I move to refer it to the Committee on Printing.

MR. ESTEE. Does the gentleman mean that the newspapers are going to print these twenty drafts of the entire Constitution that have been spoken about?

MR. MCCALLUM. No, sir; these Constitutions, under the rule we have adopted, these Constitutions must be cut up and presented as separate propositions, relating to the different articles in the Constitution. There are twelve articles, and if there are ten Constitutions prepared, that would be one hundred and twenty propositions. That will require fifty-seven thousand six hundred copies.

MR. EDGERTON. I rise to a point of order. The question is on referring to the committee.

THE CHAIR. The gentleman will confine himself to the question. MR. MCCALLUM. If it is in order I will say that I am in favor of reference, because I am in hopes that will kill the proposition. I will do this because I am in hopes that the rule will be amended in some way in reporting it back here. If they are to be printed, I think two hundred and eighty copies will be all sufficient.

The motion to refer to the Committee on Printing was lost on a standing vote-ayes, 41, noes, 74.

MR. VAN DYKE. Mr. President: I now offer an amendment, to read as follows: Insert between the words "Constitution" and "shall" the words "reported to the Convention by a committee."

MR. ESTEE. As far as the committee is concerned, and as far as I am concerned, I will vote to limit the expenses of this body, but I think it would be extraordinary for this body to say that propositions and amendments to the Constitution should not be printed. These propositions go before the various committees for their consideration, and it is of the utmost importance to have them printed. We cannot intelligently dispose of these propositions in any other manner. I do not believe there are any gentlemen on this floor, however wise, or however much experience they may have had in legislative matters, who can know the various amendments to the Constitution that may be proposed and act intelligently on them in committee or in this Convention unless they are printed. I hope the greatest latitude will be allowed in printing. I hope the thoughtful members in this body will take this into careful consideration. This is the most important rule reported by the committee, and I hope it will be adopted as reported.

MR. HAGER. I have noticed in some of the Constitutions recently framed that there is a provision that no bill introduced shall be considered until it has first been printed. I think it is a most important thing to see that these propositions shall be printed and distributed throughout the country. There is no other way of conveying the information to the people than the one proposed. Suppose a proposition has been introduced, and is reported by a committee, and some member moves to substitute his proposition in its place, why every member will have to go to the desk and get the written copy. There is no way we MR. BIGGS. I have had the honor, Mr. Chairman, to serve in the can progress here, and have the questions properly before us, except by Legislature of the State of California, and every gentleman knows that having these propositions printed. I don't care what the cost may be when a bill is introduced and is referred to a committee-everything is we had better expend the whole sum of money to have these proposi-referred to a committee before it is printed-and you take the action of tions printed than to have them enacted without being in print. Nor the committee and print it, and I dare the gentleman to deny it. What am I sure, sir, that this printing bill will have to come out of our appro- is the use of one hundred and fifty members on this floor having one priation. The Act itself says all the printing necessary for the Conven- hundred and fifty propositions alike? Let these propositions go to a tion, under the provisions of this Act, shall be done at the State Printing committee, and then let the action of the committee be printed. Why, Office. Now, we are bound to have it done there, without any regard sir, upon the subject of taxation, if you please, I ask this Convention, to the expense to the State. I think it is a charge entirely outside of do they propose to have every resolution printed which is nearly the the appropriation; but whether it is or not, these propositions should same? Why not refer them to the proper committees and let the com

mittees act on them, and after they are reported to the Convention have them printed and laid before the Convention?

MR. LARKIN. I ask the gentleman, in all seriousness, whether he proposes that these committees shall be the grave of every proposition submitted here that does not please them? Unless the majority of a committee sees fit to report it back and order it printed it will not be printed. MR. BIGGS. Mr. Larkin knows very well that every committee has the right to make a minority and majority report. The House may take the minority or majority report, just as they see fit, and every resolution will be acted on by the majority. It can always be brought before the Convention by a majority vote, when every other means fail. I say it is a waste of the people's money to have every resolution and proposition that is submitted, without referring it to a committee, printed. One gentleman says every bill is printed. Every bill is reported to the proper committee, and their action is printed, and that's the way it's done. I ask this Convention to let us change that rule, and let us refer these resolutions and propositions to the appropriate committees, and let them act on it as the action of that committee.

MR. ESTEE. Suppose the gentleman from Alameda, Mr. Van Dyke, has been incubating upon a proposition in reference to the Constitution that he regards as of great importance to the welfare of the State. He sends that up and it is read once and referred to a committee, without printing. The committee reports a substitute, something relating to the same matter, but different altogether. Now, I would like to know how this Convention is going to understand which is the best measure to adopt, except by comparison of the original and the substitute. To do so, are the gentlemen all going to flock to the Secretary's desk to examine it? I shall, for one, want to have a copy of every proposition. I want to study it there and after a committee has reported something else in place of it. I want the original proposition at my disposal, so that I may compare the two and arrive at a conclusion for myself. Now, in reference to the suggestion of Major Biggs, that no bill is ever printed in the Legislature until after it goes to a committee, he is very much off his reckoning. I hold in my hand the rules of the Assembly of California. The same rule is there, which provides that two hundred and forty copies of every bill of a general nature shall be printed. Now, in the name of common sense, let me ask him if the propositions to be embodied in the organic law of a great State, to last, perhaps, for a generation, are not of as much importance as bills of a general character in the lower branch of the Legislature. Let us have them printed, so that we may study them, and digest them, and thoroughly understand them when we come to vote. The people do not appreciate this cheese paring economy, for every dollar saved in this way may be the loss of thousands in other directions. As to the cost, I think I am entirely within the bounds of reason when I say the total cost of printing for this Convention will not be four thousand dollars.

MR. HILBORN. Does the gentleman know what it cost for printing in the Senate last fall? MR. ESTEE. Yes, sir; but the gentleman does not seem to take into consideration the limit that is being placed in this rule, limiting it to such matters as pertains directly to the Constitution.

lars.

MR. HILBORN. It cost for printing that fall eleven thousand dolMR. ESTEE. Now, sir, suppose it should cost fifty thousand dollars, or one hundred thousand dollars, and here I deny that the newspapers will publish this mass of matter. I undertake to say that the articles on judiciary will make so much that no paper in this State will undertake to print the half of it, and these gentlemen who are trying so hard to curry favor with the dear people, will soon find themselves covered up by an avalanche of letters from their constituents, praying them not to hide their light under a bushel. I tell you this is no economy. Let the broad sunlight shine upon our actions here, and let the people know what we are doing.

MR. JOHNSON. Mr. President: It occurs to me that this is a very important rule. If we print these various propositions and rules they come under our immediate notice, and are subject to our close scrutiny. If, on the other hand, these propositions are sent to the committee without printing, we know not what disposition will be made of them. They may never see daylight. They may be buried out of sight, and it will be for us to unearth them. Here is a proposition on some subject, not in the old Constitution, but on some particular thing, the Judicial Department, or Taxation, or some other particular thing. On the other hand, gentlemen will have a whole Constitution submitted as a proposition. Now, is it to be supposed that the newspapers will print these entire Constitutions? Is it to be supposed that the newspapers will print these entire propositions and resolutions? No, sir. They will print certain propositions and resolutions as they see fit, or certain parts of the proposed Constitution, and that will be the extent to which the members of this Convention will be advised of the purport of these propositions and resolutions. On the other hand, if we have them all printed and distributed among the members, then we can keep them before us, and scan them and criticise them, and we can then form some definite idea of the merits of the various proposed amendments and reso. lutions. It occurs to me that this is not the proper kind of economy to practice in the interests of the State. These propositions and resolutions should be printed. We have a State Printing Office, and all it costs is the bare material and labor. We are in a better position in that respect than many of the other States, which I believe are growing more liberal in regard to printing public documents. In my opinion the proper thing to do is to have these propositions all printed, and the number to be printed, after they are in type, will make very little difference in the cost, so there is no economy in cutting down the number. If this is done we will be better able to vote right.

MR. VAN DYKE. My amendment does not go upon the theory that it is impossible to print any other matter except that relating to the

Constitution. It is within the power of the body at any time to print propositions or resolutions submitted by any member.

MR. BEERSTECHER. Mr. President: It seems to me that we are here for a purpose, not merely to consume this one hundred and fifty thousand dollars for salaries. There seems to be a fear on the part of some of the members that some of this one hundred and fifty thousand dollars may possibly be diverted into other channels than for mere salaries, and their pay correspondingly reduced. It seems to me the people sent us here to use this one hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and such other money as is necessary, to frame a Constitution, and, in order to do that, to provide ourselves with all the necessary auxiliaries in order to carry out the purposes for which we are here. Now, this is a very important matter. It gives every one who introduces a proposition here a chance to have that proposition fully considered, and does not consign any of them to oblivion, by merely referring it to a committee, thus to be buried at the option of the committee. By referring it to a committee, that committee may never report upon it, and the matter will pass into oblivion. While I am in favor of being economical, I believe that every proposition brought before this Convention should be printed. MR. NOEL. Mr. President: I think this is very important. If the Convention intends to submit to the judgment of the committees entirely, then let the propositions go to the committees without printing. If, on the other hand, the Convention intends to exercise its own judgment, it can do that only by a comparison of all the propositions submitted, and it will never be possible to do that except by having them printed. If the proposed amendment prevails, it seems to me that these committees will serve no other purpose than as a place for smothering the various propositions introduced by members of the Convention. The Convention will know nothing about the propositions except as they hear them read at the Clerk's desk.

MR. BARRY. Mr. President: As one of the Committee on Rules, that I think this Convention can act more wisely, and more understandingly, on matters coming before it if all these proposed amendments are printed. We are wasting and frittering away more money in this discussion than it would cost to do the work. I think it is necessary and useful to have this printing done, and while there may be some matters that are not worthy of being printed, taken as a whole it is well worth while. I hope the Convention will come to a vote at once.

MR. HAGER. Mr. President: I regret to take up any further time, but it seems to me, sir, this is a very important matter. As I stated before, I have some doubt whether this expense will come out of the appropriation of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. If we find that we are trenching to any considerable extent upon this appropriation, we can take the advice of the Attorney-General, and if he advises us that the cost of printing must come out of this appropriation, then we can commence and cut down. I am of the opinion that the Attorney-General will say that the expense of printing is independent of this one hundred and fifty thousand dollars appropriation, and will be paid for by the State. Now, I undertake to say that to frame a Constitution without the propositions being printed is an utter impossibility, and I for one do not desire to place myself upon record here as wishing to deprive the people of any information which they are entitled to, as to what may be going on here. They want light as to every proposition presented here, and they have allowed us printing presses and types in order that we may do this very thing. Every lawyer and every Judge in the State will want to be informed as to every proposition that is presented here, and they have a right to know. Every man interested in corporations will want to know as to propositions introduced in relation to them. Every landholder will want to know about the propositions on revenue and taxation, and every one interested in any of the avocations affected will want to know, and the people will look back with grave suspicion on any attempt to deprive them of that information. How are they to get that information? By the speeches and proceedings? No, sir, you have refused to let the people read what you have to say; you have refused to publish even the Journal of your proceedings, and now you propose to cover up the proposed amendments to the Constitution. You say they will get it through the public press; but how will the press get it unless you print it and send it to them, for there are only a few papers represented here? Will they come here and copy your propositions and print them? No, sir, they will do nothing of the kind. If you do not print these things you will soon hear from your constituents in a way that will convince you that they do not thank you for this kind of economy.

Suppose one of these propositions is before a committee for consideration, how are they going to consider it if it is not printed? One member, or the Secretary, will have to read from bad manuscript, perhaps, while the others listen, trying in vain to get some idea of its contents as the reader stumbles through it, and after it is read they must vote on it, aye or no. They have no copy of it, they cannot criticise it, they cannot consider it section by section, they cannot propose amendments. If this is to be the practice we might as well abandon the work at once, for it will never be a success, and will not give satisfaction. Now, in regard to printing in legislative bodies, the rules of the Senate of the United States provide that every bill and general resolution introduced or reported from a committee, and bills and general resolutions received by the House, and all reports, shall be printed, unless the printing is dispensed with. The dispensing with the printing is the exception to the rule, and every bill has to be printed. If there are matters of so little consequence that they should not be printed the rule can be suspended. MR. SWING. I move the previous question.

The call for the previous question was seconded by Messrs. Tinnin and Freeman. THE CHAIR. The question is on the amendment offered by Mr. Van Dyke. The amendment was rejected.

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