a public journal, purporting to be a report of remarks made by a certain gentleman outside of this Convention. The Chair decides that it is not a question of privilege, and from that decision the gentleman takes an appeal to the Convention. The question is whether the decision of the Chair shall stand as the judgment of the Convention, and upon that the ayes and noes are demanded. MR. HOWARD. Is the appeal debatable? MR. WHITE. My object is, sir, to set a portion of this Convention in good feeling and harmony with the others, and my only object is to produce harmony. If we were what we are described in that paragraph we would be unworthy of positions on this floor. THE PRESIDENT. The gentleman is out of order. The question is upon sustaining the decision of the Chair. You will confine yourself to that question. MR. WHITE. I presume this ought to be a subject for consideration here. We ought to be allowed to relieve ourselves from accusations coming from individuals as well as from public journals. In Congress, members frequently rise to questions of privilege, on account of articles appearing in the public journals. It is done in Congress constantly, and I hope, gentlemen, you will stand up and allow us to have the privilege of explaining. We mean nothing unfair. All we ask is a fair show, and to be treated as equals. MR. MCFARLAND. It seems to me that the Chair should be sustained, for this reason: I suppose we are likely to be pestered with questions of personal privilege. Now, I understand that question arises when some charge or statement is made about some individual member of the body. I don't understand that any gentlemen here has a right to rise to a question of personal privilege because some political party of which he is a member has been assailed. I might say I belong to the Republican party, and that certain gentlemen in this house had called that party a set of thieves, but we certainly could not hold that to be a question of personal privilege. If these are to be considered questions of privilege, you might spent the whole of the session here in that way. If there had been any allusion to the gentleman from Santa Cruz, Mr. White, I would have no objection. But it is not about the gentleman, but about his political party, and that certainly is not a question of personal privilege. MR. WHITE. It is about fifty-one of the members of this Convention, and they are individually alluded to as the fifty-one members from the other side of the room. MR. INMAN. I think this whole thing is out of order, and to settle the thing right here I move to lay the appeal on the table. The ayes and noes were demanded by Messrs. Beerstecher, O'Sullivan, and White, and the motion to lie on the table prevailed by the following vote: MR. BEERSTECHER. There must be a mistake in the count, as I have kept it myself, and it does not tally with that of the Secretary. PHONOGRAPHIC REPORTERS. relation to an official short-hand reporter, and his compensation. Thé The PRESIDENT. The next thing in order is the special order in report of the committee is before the body for their action. MR. AYERS. I call for the reading of the report. The report was read as follows: To the President and members of the Convention: Your committee appointed to tion, beg leave to submit the following report: That the Convention elect a Phonoexamine into the subject of reporting the proceedings and debates of this Convengraphic Reporter, who shall be empowered to select his assistant, the two to be the shorthand reporters of this Convention, and to be entitled to the per diem fixed by law for their services. That the reporters so selected be required to furnish a longhand verbatim report of the proceedings of this Convention on the following terms, to wit: at the rate of twenty cents per folio, with the further provision that if the Convention last one hundred days, the entire compensation said reporters shall receive for transcribing their notes into longhand shall not exceed six thousand dollars. That the reporter who may be elected by this Convention shall enter into good and sufficient bonds, in the sum of ten thousand dollars, for the efficient and faithful performance of his duty, and guarantee the State against recovery by him of any compensation for his services in this connection, exceeding the gross tum of eight thousand dollars, including the per diem of himself and assistant and cost of transcribing, for the entire session, should it last one hundred days, or twenty cents per folio for transcribing into longhand their notes should the session not last one hundred days. JAMES E. MURPHY, Chairman. MR. ESTEE. At the request of several members, I move that Colonel Barnes be added to the Committee on Rules, as he has had experience in that line. The motion prevailed. MR. ESTEE. The first thing in order is the motion of the gentleman from San Francisco, that when this Convention adjourns to-day, it adjourn until Monday, at one o'clock P. M. MR. VAN DYKE. I move that it be postponed. MR. MCCALLUM. I move that it be laid on the table-the motion that when we adjourn we adjourn to meet on Monday. The motion prevailed, and the motion laid on the table. MR. AYERS. Mr. President: In explanation of this report I will state to the members of the Convention that under this arrangement by no possibility could the expense of reporting and transcribing the proceedings of this Convention exceed the sum of eight thousand dollars. That would be the limit that it could reach for a session of one hundred days. If, however, the session should be shorter, the State would have the advantage of the economy in the amount of matter that would have to be handled. The committee have examined the question thoroughly, and if its report is carried out, and the bond executed, the entire expense of the Convention will not exceed that laid down. That, however, is entirely disconnected from the printing. The printing will be done at the State Printing Office, and as I understand it there is a separate appropriation to pay for it. I have made a hasty estimate of what the printing will cost. A volume of eight hundred pages, of about the same size as the Illinois and Ohio debates, in the same form and same type, will cost for one thousand copies perhaps two thousand dollars. The entire cost, therefore, of the reporting and transcribing, and the printing of the debates and proceedings, will not exceed that sum. MR. FAWCETT. How many volumes will this report fill if the Convention should last one hundred days. MR. AYERS. I hold in my hand the debates of the Ohio Convention, and they consist of two volumes: the one before me having one thousand three hundred and thirty-three pages. I don't know how long that Convention lasted, but my estimate is made on eight hundred pages, of about that size [showing], perhaps smaller type. MR. FAWCETT. I venture to say that it will be a physical impossibility, if this Convention remains in session one hundred days, to put the debates in that small a space. In my judgment it will require at least three volumes. MR. AYERS. I understand from Mr. Van Dyke that the Ohio Convention was in session for one hundred and ninety days, and the reports only fill two volumes. MR. EDGERTON. I hope the gentleman will allow me to answer the question as to the time covered by these reports. I see this volume covers a period intervening between the third of May and August eighth-three months-and still there is another volume. MR. FAWCETT. I proceed upon the theory that the debates will fill five volumes. The debates and proceedings cannot be fairly compressed into one volume, unless we lay down very stringent rules as to what shall be printed. Now, if we undertake to print these debates, I think the sentiment of the Convention will be in favor of full reports; that no committee and no reporter can be entrusted with the power to say what matters shall or shall not be printed, and say it will be impossible to compress the debates in one or two volumes. It will not do to proceed upon that idea, so that it is safe to say that the total cost will exceed ten thousand dollars. Let that be understood. There is no question about it. The total expense will be at least as much as fifteen thousand dollars. I am desirous of getting at the facts of the case, and the cost of the work before voting upon it, and I don't desire to vote upon it under any misapprehension. The gentleman cannot point to a single instance in the United States where the reports of the debates and proceedings of a Convention of this kind have not exceeded the figures which he has made. He has had a great deal of knowledge on this kind of work, but the proposition that the composition, printing, and binding of these reports can be embraced within the sum of two thousand dollars strikes me as absurd. MR. AYERS. Mr. President: I merely wish to say that, in speaking of the cost of printing in connection with this report, I have done so from hasty calculations. I would suggest that if it is necessary for the Convention to know what the printing will cost in connection with the Caples, report, it would be well to appoint a committee for that purpose, and let Chapman, them examine into the thing thoroughly, and that will make a report Charles, reliable on the subject. Condon, Rhodes, Ringgold, Hughey, Hunter, Inman, Johnson, Jones, Joyce, Kelley, Kenny, Shurtleff, Keyes, Smith, of Santa Clara, Kleine, Smith, of 4th District, Lampson, Larue, Smith, of San Francisco, Swenson, MR. ROLFE. Mr. President: I have not the Ohio debates before Cowden, me. My recollection is, that there were four volumes. By turning to Cross, the appendix you will see that the members received pay for about two Crouch, hundred and seventy days, or a little over eight months. I may be Davis, mistaken, but I do not think I am. We are limited to one hundred Dean, days. I think if a judicious discretion is used in chopping out irrele-Dowling, vant matter, that the proceedings can be got in about two volumes. Doyle, MR. FILCHER. rise to a point of order. The report of the com- Dudley, of San Joaquin, Larkin, mittee only contemplated the securing of a longhand copy of the debates Dudley, of Solano, and proceedings. The question of printing was not mentioned in the Dunlap, report, and my point is, that the gentlemen who are discussing the print- Edgerton, ing are going away from the point. I insist upon my point of order. Estey, THE PRESIDENT. The Chair cannot undertake to limit the gentle- Evey, men in their remarks. The point of order is overruled. Farrell, Fawcett, Filcher, Finney, Freeman, Freud, Garvey, Glascock, Gorman, Grace, Gregg, MR. SWING. The Ohio Convention was in session, actual session, one hundred and eighty-eight days, and the reports were published in full. The reports comprise some speeches which have no more in them than a great many speeches made in this Convention, and the actual cost of the reporting and transcribing amounted to thirteen thousand six hundred and ninety-five dollars and seventy-eight cents. The printing amounted to a little over eight thousand dollars. That statement reached up to the eighth day of May, eighteen hundred and seventy-four, and the Convention adjourned on the eighteenth day; so that it does not comprise the last ten days, but it would give reports for one hundred and seventy-eight days. Now this Constitutional Convention cannot be in session more than seventy-five or eighty days, and I believe these will be contained in two volumes, and that will bring the expense within eight thousand or ten thousand dollars altogether. reports MR. BEERSTECHER. I believe I offered a resolution on this subject this morning, and I desire to call it up in connection with the report of the committee. I desire to offer it as a substitute for the report of the committee. MR. FREEMAN. There seems to be so wide a difference in regard to the probable cost of doing this printing, that I move that a cominittee of five be appointed to ascertain the probable cost of printing the reports of this Convention, and that the report now under consideration be deferred until we have the report of the committee to be appointed. MR. ROLFE. I think the gentleman from Sacramento is out of order. I think I was myself the one who spoke about the printing. It is the reporting we have now before us. This matter of the printing is another thing, and can be taken up at another time. We We can print it ourselves, or leave it to the Legislature, or not have it printed at all. MR. LARKIN. I move to lay the whole subject-matter on the table until we get further information. MR. HAGER. If this motion is debatable, I want to say that under this Act we are bound to elect a reporter. If it goes to the table the rule requires two thirds to take it up again. MR. MCCALLUM. The motion is to lie on the table until we get farther information as to this subject, and there is no proposition made to get that information officially. THE PRESIDENT. It will only require a majority vote to take it from the table. MR. INMAN. These gentlemen are not going to stop here for a month and report our proceedings for nothing. I would like to know the gentleman's object. I can't see no reason for such a motion. I would like to have him state the object. If it is only for delay I hope gentlemen will see the impropriety of it. Let us get down to business. This is only buncombe. For my part I have had enough of their buncombe. MR. LARKIN. I will withdraw the motion to lie on the table, and ask to have it referred to some committee to make an estimate, or have it referred back to the same committee to get the information. MR. DUDLEY, of Solano. If it is true, as suggested by the gentleman, that we have no authority to print these reports, but that is to be dependent on the Legislature, then I don't see that we have anything to do with that part of it. I suppose the law means that we are to report the proceedings, and leave it to the next Legislature to publish them or not. In that case the question of the cost of printing is not one for us to consider. MR. AYERS. I would say that it will be useless for this Convention to have the proceedings reported unless they are to be printed. We cannot read the shorthand notes. We have authority under the law to print them, and it is necessary that they should be printed. The motion to refer back to the committee prevailed. On motion of Mr. Van Dyke, at three o'clock and nine minutes P. M., the Convention adjourned until to-morrow morning at ten o'clock. SEVENTH DAY. Hager, Hall, Ayers, Mansfield, Waters, Neunaber, Webster, MR. BEERSTECHER. Upon the motion to lay Mr. White's motionbeing Mr. White's appeal from the decision of the Chair-upon the table, I find, upon examination, that the gentleman who kept the account at that time has made a number of errors in the vote that was taken at that time, and I would like to have the ayes and noes called as he has got them. THE PRESIDENT. The Convention has disposed of that question. MR. BEERSTECHER. Mr. President: I am down in the ayes and noes as voting "aye"-to lay the appeal upon the table. I desire to have it corrected. I voted "no." Mr. Volney E. Howard is on the roll as not having voted at all. THE PRESIDENT. The gentleman is out of order. The Chair has announced MR. BEERSTECHER. I would like to have my vote corrected. I do not desire to change my vote. I voted not to lay the appeal upon the table. With due deference to the Chair THE PRESIDENT. The question was disposed of finally. MR. HEISKELL. Do I understand that these proceedings cannot be corrected? I supposed that the proceedings were read for that purpose. THE PRESIDENT. The gentleman is out of order. MR. HEISKELL. I appeal from the decision of the Chair and call for the ayes and noes. MESSRS. BEERSTECHER and O'SULLIVAN also called for the ayes and noes. MR. MCCALLUM. This gentleman had no opportunity to have his name corrected yesterday, because the names were not read as recorded. Now, I understand that any gentleman has a right to have his vote corrected. This is the first opportunity that he has to know that his vote is incorrectly recorded. I think the Chair misunderstands the gentleman. The gentleman simply desires to have his vote corrected, and this is the first opportunity he has had to correct it. THE PRESIDENT. I understand the gentleman that he wanted to go back to the whole question. If the gentleman's vote is improperly adjourn-recorded it can be corrected. MR. JOYCE. I would like to have my vote corrected, as I understand I have been incorrectly recorded. MR. EDGERTON. The question is whether this Journal correctly represents the vote as cast. These gentlemen may have voted under a misapprehension. MR. JOYCE. I would say that I voted “no.” MR. EDGERTON. Then the Journal ought to be corrected. MR. STEDMAN. I hold in my hand a tally of that vote yesterday, which I kept, and the motion to lay the appeal on the table was lost according to that tally. I being a young man I did not like to get up, but there is the tally, sir. MR. BEERSTECHER. I am satisfied that there was eight errors in the voting. THE PRESIDENT. If there is any gentleman desires his vote corrected he can apply to the Chair and have his vote corrected. MR. SWENSON. I would desire to ask how my vote is recorded? MR. SWENSON. That is all right. MR. DOYLE. How am I recorded? THE SECRETARY. "No." MR. DOYLE. I wish to have it changed to "aye." MR. JOYCE. How am I recorded? THE SECRETARY. Recorded as voting "aye." MR. JOYCE. I voted "no," sir; I want it so recorded. nite postponement of the report of the committee. I do this because I am opposed to a reporter. I am opposed to employing this Phonographic Reporter with the expense that it is thought will be incident to it. I was astonished the other day when it was announced in the Convention that reporting the proceedings of the Illinois Convention had cost that State fifty-seven thousand dollars. We, sir, in the point of expense, exceed Illinois as much as we do in the size of our trees. If to report the Illinois Convention cost that State fifty-seven thousand dollars, in my opinion, before the State of California gets through with the reporting and publication in bound volumes of the debates of this Convention, the treasury of this State will have been depleted to the extent of one hundred thousand dollars. I know that my remarks seem extravagant as compared with the statement of the committee upon that subject. It seems absurd, as it were, but without being a prophet or the son of a prophet, I am willing to offer that suggestion to this Convention. We MR. WATERS. I would like to have the Secretary announce how I are not going to cut down upon the cost of the Illinois Convention. We voted. MR. MCFARLAND. Mr. President: If upon any occasion I vote "no" and I am found to be recorded "aye," I have a right to correct that vote next morning with the consent of the body. There might be a question of fact as to how I voted. I might not vote as I intended, and then certainly I cannot change my vote next morning. If I am misrepresented, of course, with the consent of the Convention, I may have the correction made. It depends entirely upon a question of fact. I understand that some gentlemen are somewhat in doubt as to how they did vote. THE PRESIDENT. The Chair has permitted these corrections to be made. MR. TINNIN. That is a privileged matter with the members of this body. These votes go forth to the world, as the acts of the individual | members of this body, and they have a right to be placed right on that record. A mistake of a clerk ought not to be allowed to misrepresent a member. It is a personal right and every one who has voted has a right to be placed on that record as he voted. MR. SMITH. of San Francisco. Have it read over. THE PRESIDENT. If any gentleman desires to correct his vote he has an opportunity to do so. MR. SMITH, of San Francisco. It is for the reason that the men don't understand how they voted yesterday. They claim, sir, that it is a mistake of the Secretary. I claim that the motion yesterday to lay on the table was lost. MR. EDGERTON. I rise to a point of order. There is nothing before this House for discussion. The Chair has announced that if any gentleman's name is not recorded correctly, that it may be corrected. All he has got to do is to say so. THE PRESIDENT. Does the gentleman from San Francisco desire to have his vote corrected? MR. SMITH. of San Francisco. I don't know whether my vote is recorded properly or not. THE SECRETARY. Mr. Smith is recorded as voting "no." are not going to cut down upon the cost of the Eastern States upon that subject. It will cost us in the proportion as the expenses of the Pacific Coast exceed the expenses of the Eastern States in all the cost of things of this character. But when we employ Phonographic Reporters to report this Convention, if they are employed, I want it reported as the Ohio reports are, that everything shall be reported, even to the prayers of this Convention, if we have prayers. Sometimes the very smallest thing either points a moral or adorns a tale, and I don't want it left to a select four, or five, or six of this Convention to say what shall go into the reports and what shall not. If the proceedings are reported let it be verbatim. If it is intended to show to posterity how able we are as statesmen, it should all be in there; if it is intended to show that we were able to frame and mould a new form of government that is to be the admiration of the world, all should go in there; if it is proposed that it shall stand as a warning beacon for future generations, then all should go in there. I do not want it clipped one line. I do not want the crossing of one "t" or the dotting of one "i." I do not believe, sir, that the reporting of this Convention will be worth the cost of it. I do not believe that my constituents care to have the money expended that it will cost to do it; hence, for the purpose of making it a test question, I have made the motion that I have. sum. MR. AYERS. There may, perhaps, be some force in the parallel drawn by the gentleman from Monterey. It has been asserted in this Convention that the reports of the debates and proceedings in the State of Illinois cost in the vicinity of fifty-seven thousand dollars, I believe. How two volumes like that (holding up the book to the view of the Convention) reported and printed, and printed to the extent of one thousand copies, could have cost that sum I cannot divine. There must have been a great steal in it. Legitimate work could not have cost that Your committee, with the aid of the State Printer, and I will here remark in parenthesis that no job is possible, so far as printing is concerned, in this State, because we have a State Printing Office here of which this Convention, by statute, has the control; the use of the material is at our service; the presses, the type, and whatever is in that establishment is at the service of this Convention. It is, therefore, only necessary in estimating upon this work to find out what will be the cost of the material upon which the work shall be printed; what shall be the cost of the labor connected with the press-work: what shall be the cost of the composition. All of these items are easily arrived at. The cost, per page, of the composition (I am speaking now to the printing), cannot exceed three dollars. The measure is there, and it cannot be MR. WICKES. I move that the vote as recorded be read. THE PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the Chair will allow the enlarged or contracted. The cost of nine hundred and fifty pages which vote to be read. man. that volume contains (the reports of the Illinois Convention are conThe Secretary read the roll call. tained in two such volumes) would be two thousand eight hundred and MR. STEDMAN. For the information of this house I would like to fifty dollars. The cost of the press-work for one thousand copies would hear the result of that corrected vote. be two hundred and eighty-five dollars and sixty cents. The cost of MR. VAN DYKE. This is simply to correct the vote of each gentle-paper for one thousand copies-one hundred and thirty reams-eight Now this proceeding shows the danger that we are liable to fall hundred and fifty-eight dollars. The cost of binding one thousand into by following this plan. I understood some gentlemen distinctly to copies, at sixty-five cents per copy, six hundred and fifty dollars, and I vote as recorded by the Secretary. Afterwards it is called to their atten- defy any man, with the State Printing Office at our command, to enlarge tion that they inadvertently voted different from what they intended, these figures. Therefore the whole matter would resolve itself into this: and then, of course, it is thrown on the clerk. Of course every man if the session of the Convention should last long enough so that we should has a right to be on the record as he votes, but he has not the right to make matter that would fill two such volumes as that, the entire cost of come here the next morning and vote as he intended to vote but did not printing, including a daily Journal and the bound Journal at the end of the session, would be as follows: four thousand six hundred and fortythree dollars and sixty cents per volume for two volumes of the reports; one thousand and thirty-nine dollars for the Journal; two hundred dollars for the daily Journal, to be printed and laid on our desks, making vote. THE PRESIDENT. If there are no more corrections the Journal will stand approved. PHONOGRAPHIC REPORTERS. MR. MURPHY, from the Committee on Phonographic Reporting and a total cost of printing amount to ten thousand five hundred and twentyPrinting, presented the following report: To the President of the Convention: six dollars and twenty cents. That is the extreme limit, providing we only make two such volumes of matter in this session. The reporting and reproducing the notes into longhand can only cost eight thousand dollars; the whole extent of this entire work would be eighteen thousand five hundred and twenty-six dollars and twenty cents, for reportregards the matter in hand as reported by the committee. Now, if any gentleman here is afraid that this expenditure may reach to any colossal sum, as it was reached in the State of Illinois, I would like to have him point out to me where is the leak; where is that India rubber flexibility that will enlarge eighteen thousand dollars up to fifty-seven thousand dollars. It could only be if we had the power, and we have it not, to let this matter out by contract; then the stealing might come in-then the favoritism might come in-but as long as we have control of that establishment over there, and have our work done there, there can be no such thing. Sir: Your committee on reporting the proceedings of the Convention, having had its powers enlarged so as to take in the subject of printing, the reports, beg leave to make the following report on the whole subject: That the cost of reporting the proceedings and debates in shorthand, and transcribing them into longhand, readying and printing everything connected with this Convention, so far as for the printer, will not exceed eight thousand dollars for the session, if it last one hundred days, and this sum includes the per diem of the reporters; that if the session does not last one hundred days, the cost of transcribing will not exceed the sum of six thousand dollars, and the State will have the advantage in such less cost as may be incurred in case of a short session, by only paying for the transcribing by he folio at the rate of twenty cents per flio. That the cost of printing the proceedings and debates in the form of the Illinois reports will amount to four thousand six hundred and forty-three dollars and sixty cents per volume of nine hundred and fifty pages; this for one thousand copies, bound and complete. That the cost of printing five hundred copies of five hundred pages of the Journal will reach one thousand and thirty-nine dollars. That the cost of printing the daily Journal for the use of the members will amount to about two hundred dollars for the session. JAMES E. MURPHY, Chairman. THE PRESIDENT. If there is no objection the report will be received and be before the Convention for action. So ordered. MR. WYATT. For the purpose of disposing of this question and esting the sense of this Convention upon this subject, I move the indefi MR. FREEMAN. We might as well understand as clearly as we can the limits of this thing at once. Yesterday the computations, as made by a member of the committee, suggested, I believe, the sum of two thousand dollars. MR. AYERS. I beg leave to make a correction. The gentleman will recollect that, at the suggestion of Judge Fawcett, I estimated that an doubtful, is a very different thing from the expenditure of the same octavo volume of eight hundred pages would not cost over two thousand amount of money when it is distributed through a large class of perdollars, or about two thousand dollars. It was a hasty calculation. Isons. Political economy is composed of two great departments-first, said I had not made that estimate in relation to this sized volume, the creation of wealth; second, its distribution. One party now seems neither in form or matter. to be greatly exercised about the distribution of wealth. I, sir, am not MR. FREEMAN. That is just about what it was; the computations in favor at all of any of those wild schemes that have been lately agiwere hasty. What is the use of talking about the proceedings being tated and presented, such as that the State and municipal corporations reported in a volume of nine hundred and fifty pages? The Illinois should expend money merely for the purpose of giving employment. Convention, to which reference has been made, consisted of eighty-five | Some have gone so far as to say that it would be right to employ men members, and was in session ninety-five days. Now, I do not believe to wheel stones from one part of the city and back again, simply for the that these one hundred and fifty-two men here will allow any eighty-purpose of giving employment to labor. But, sir, in estimating the cost five Illinois men to do more talking in ninety-five days than they can of printing, it is certainly fair to consider that nearly every dollar of it, do in one hundred days. I believe, sir, that the reports of our Conven- all of it, in fact, except the mere price of the paper on which it is tion will be as much larger than the reports of the Illinois Convention printed, goes to a set of as worthy and industrious and as hard-workas one hundred and fifty is larger than eighty-five. Now, in making ing workingmen as there are in this State. [Applause.] There is no the computation made by the State Printer, the committee saw proper to set of men in the State of California, I don't care who they are, that select less than one half of the Illinois report for their estimate. They do more hard work for the same amount of money, than the printers have selected the smallest volume, which contains nine hundred and of this State. They are workingmen in the truest sense of the wordfifty pages, instead of the first volume, which contains one thousand and men who do more work, do harder work, do work at the most unseasonseventy-seven pages. Now, these Illinois reports, it must be admitted, able hours, do work that tends more to the destruction of the faculties, is the very smallest limit with which our reports can be put, contain both of the body and mind, than any other class of workingmen in the over two thousand pages; all three columns; each column contains State of California. Now, sir, every dollar of the expense of printing eighty-four lines; each line about seven words; making thirty-five will go to that class of workingmen of the State. But, sir, when we thousand two hundred and eighty folios, at least, to be transcribed at come to consider the cost of printing, I do not see how it is going to be twenty cents per folio would cost seven thousand and fifty-six dollars. very great; I do not see how it can be. The gentleman from Alameda I wish to say this, in regard to the computations that are now made, presented this matter fully. According to his calculations, I cannot unthat it rarely happens that the estimates at the beginning of any job derstand how the amount of money to be paid out to these printers is realize what it amounts to at the end. I desire here to call the attention going to amount to any very large sum. I certainly think that we can of this body to work that has already been done in the State Printing obtain the proceedings at a cost not exceeding eight thousand dollars Office, for the purpose of making an estimate. Now, in the report of for the reporting and transcribing, and the cost of the whole at fifteen eighteen hundred and seventy-eight, we have the cost of printing the thousand dollars, which is seven thousand dollars for the printing, and statutes of eighteen hundred and seventy-five-six, and it is stated to be that money going to a worthy class of workingmen of the country. I six thousand three hundred and eighty dollars. By an actual estimate, I do not believe, sir, that the people will object to the printing of these find that these statutes contain just one fifth of the matter contained in debates in this way. these volumes of the Illinois reports; hence it would require about thirty thousand dollars to put forth a volume containing as much as the two Illinois reports. I will ask again what I asked the other day, why do we want a Phonographic Reporter? Gentlemen have alluded to the fact that there were questions of importance to be discussed here. I will admit that, and that they will be ably discussed; but the substance of these discussions will be sent out to the world and read by the people carefully long before any official reports of the proceedings of this Convention can be made. Why, we propose to print a thousand copies. That is not for public information. Why, if we print at all, if we want this as a matter of publicity, we should go into the newspaper business, and send them abroad to the State and to the world. the real object of this be to give people information upon constitutional questions, then they should be like a newspaper, sent broadcast. But the very newspaper which this morning tells us to proceed to the election of a reporter, tells us in the same article that whether we elect one or not it will give a full report of our proceedings, and we have no occasion for a reporter. The question is now to indefinitely postpone this report. This seems to me not the proper way to act upon the report of the committee. Upon the indefinite postpone-to ment I shall vote "no," but when the question comes whether we shall employ any Phonographic Reporter, I shall vote against it. If MR. LAINE offered the following resolution: Resolved, That the Phonographic Reporter be allowed fifty dollars per day, and no more, for his per diem and that of his assistant, for reporting the proceedings of the Convention, and transcribing the same into longhand, ready for the printer. MR. FREEMAN. First, let us determine whether we will have a shorthand reporter. I think the first question that we ought to decide is whether we will have Phonographic Reporters. We can then get the sense of the House upon that question. Then we had better take a little time before the contract is let. I would like the question to be divided, Reporter. so as to first put the question as to whether we shall elect a Phonographic THE PRESIDENT. The resolution of the gentleman from Placer MR. HAGER. Will the Secretary please read that resolution. Resolved, That this Convention do now proceed to the election of a Phonographic MR. SHAFTER. Do I understand the gentleman that the question now is upon the indefinite postponement of this report? There is no proposition in this report of any kind to be acted upon; none whatever. They simply report that certain services will cost a certain sum of money. They recommend no action of any kind. I submit as a question of order that there is nothing in the report that recommends any action. MR. MURPHY. I move to take up the resolution upon which this report says that the reporter shall be entitled to the per diem fixed by resolution is based-the resolution providing for a Phonographic Re-law for their services. There is no law fixing their per diem. There is no per diem fixed by law for Phonographic Reporters of this Convention. furnish longhand reports. porter-and have the matter disposed of. MR. AYERS. I would suggest that the report of the committee yester-The next proposition yesterday was that the reporter be required to day and the report to-day are connected; that this is a subsidiary report to that. In that there is a clear proposition made. MR. MURPHY. I move that this report be adopted and then we will vote upon the resolution. MR. EDGERTON. I would inquire if the reference in this resolution is to the report of yesterday or to-day. MR. FILCHER. Both reports. It says "reports." I see in looking forvention was being called to order, that it is a little ambiguous. over the report yesterday, which was written very hastily as the Con MR. FILCHER. Mr. President, I desire to offer this resolution, the purpose of presenting the matter in a shape that will disclose the sense of the Convention on the substance of the report: MR. FILCHER. MR. FREEMAN. That is the reason I asked for a division of the question. This point, however, was made clearly in the subsequent report this morning, and it will be seen that in no possible event shall the cost for reporting and transcribing exceed the sum of phono-eight thousand dollars. Resolved, That this Convention do now proceed to the election of a Phonographic Reporter, whose duties and pay shall be governed by the provisions of the reports of the Committee on Reporting and Printing. I cer MR. HOWARD. I move to amend the resolution by striking out all after the words "Phonographic Reporter." MR. EDGERTON. I did not know until this moment that the report contained the proviso that in no event should the cost of printingMR. FILCHER. The reporting and transcribing shall not exceed eight thousand dollars. MR. PRESIDENT. The question is on the motion of the gentleman from Los Angeles, Mr. Howard, to strike out the words "whose duties and pay shall be governed by the provisions of the reports of the Com MR. MCFARLAND. Mr. President: When the question of graphic reporting first came up before this body, I was in grave doubt about the propriety of the action of this body in regard to it. tainly think that we ought to have a report of the proceedings of this body. Nearly every other State of the Union which has had a Constitutional Convention, has submitted in a permanent form to the world its deliberations, and I have only been deterred from advocating the matter myself by a consideration of cost. I knew nothing about it myself, and have been waiting for information from those better informed. Now, it seems to me that we have come to a fair calculation of one portion of the cost, and we certainly know, if we adopt this resolution,mittee on Reporting and Printing." The resolution would then stand: the bounds which the reporter shall not exceed. It says that the whole cost of reporting and transcribing shall not exceed eight thousand dollars, and that the gentleman we shall select shall give bonds that he MR. HAGER. I have said heretofore that I thought by the Act of the will present no bill exceeding eight thousand dollars. We know, there- Legislature we were substantially instructed to appoint Phonographic fore, how much that will cost at the outside. Now, the only additional Reporters. The Act reads: "The Convention may select Phonographic cost is the cost of printing. It seems to me we ought to consider, to Reporters and fix the amount of their compensation; also, a Sergeantsome extent, where that money is going. I understand that the expen-at-Arms and one assistant." Now it is true that perhaps we may not diture of public money, when it goes to an individual on a claim that is select Phonographic Reporters under a fair construction of this Act, but Resolved, "That this Convention do now proceed to the election of a Phonographic Reporter." I look upon it as equivalent to an instruction so far as the Legislature is concerned, they having evidently thought that we ought to select Phonographic Reporters to make a report of the proceedings and debates of this Convention. That is the view that I take of it, that it is an instruction from the Legislature, and so far as any one feels bound to follow that instruction, I think it is his duty to obey it in voting to have these proceedings reported. MR. AYERS. In order to place the whole subject more clearlyMR. HAGER. Mr. President: I am not done. Now, in regard to the printing. We are not instructed in regard to the printing one way or the other. If we simply conclude to have the reports made they will be placed on file, and a future Legislature may order them printed or not. Now the Convention may take that view of it, to have the proceedings reported and to allow them to be placed among the archives, to be published hereafter if they see fit. I presume that by the Act we are authorized to order the printing, inasmuch as it provides for the printing of any other matter that may be necessary for the Convention. I should say that they should be printed so that they could be placed upon our desks the morning after the debates occur. That can be done. That is the course in Congress. If they are printed at all during the session they should be placed on the desks of members on the following day. I have no desire to perpetuate my name through the printed debates of this Convention. Let it be printed or not, it is immaterial to me. I do not know that I would vote for the printing. Men can be immortalized in books, and I understand there is a gentleman getting up the biographies of members here so that they can acquire immortality in that way. It is not necessary that we have these proceedings published, but the question is whether it is most desirable. I think, perhaps in most views it is desirable, but so far as personal considerations are concerned I do not care a snap of my finger whether they are published or not. I would wish now to make an amendment to the proposition of the member from Los Angeles, Mr. Howard. I offer this amendment: "That in the opinion of this Convention Phonographic Reporters should be appointed to report the proceedings of this Convention." That will bring the question directly before the Convention. If this resolution should pass, should then be in favor of appointing a committee to interview the different reporters and then report the names of those who are competent and the price for which it can be done. I would like to have the question first decided whether we will have Phonographic Reporters. I offer this resolution: Resolved, That, in the opinion of this Convention, Phonographic Reporters should be appointed to report the proceedings of this Convention. MR. MCCALLUM. I rise simply for information. I heard the report of the committee, but there have been some amendments offered since that I did not hear. THE PRESIDENT. The amendment of the gentleman from Los Angeles is to strike out the latter clause of the resolution, so that it will simply proceed to the election of a Phonographic Reporter. MR. MCFARLAND. We do not know, from the resolution, what the reporter is going to do, or what pay he will receive. It does seem to me that the fairest way is to vote upon the original resolution. MR. BIGGS. I want to see the gentlemen come right square up to the question, whether they are in favor of reporting their speeches. The resolution offered by Mr. Filcher brings that question to a direct issue. And I want it understood that I am opposed to the election of a Phonographic Reporter; and I must say, that I am very much surprised at the delegate from San Francisco, Judge Hager, to come here and advocate the taxation of the downtrodden people of this State. The law says we may have a reporter; he says that it is implied that we should have one. Then he goes on and says, so far as he is concerned, he don't care whether the proceedings are reported or not. He cares not whether his name is handed down to posterity with the last declaration; he don't care whether he cinches the people of this State thirty or forty thousand dollars. MR. HAGER. If my friend will allow me, I said that, so far as I was personally concerned, I did not care a snap of my finger whether the debates were printed or not; but so far as the expenses are concerned, I care just as much about them as the old watchdog of the treasury. [Laughter.] MR. BIGGS. I accept the appellation. I came here pledged to the people of California, of the whole State, that I will cooperate with the men of this Convention that they shall not be taxed to death. I propose to notice the remark of the distinguished gentleman from Sacramento, Judge McFarland. He says every dollar is paid to the printers, and goes to the working men. Who pays the money into the treasury? Who puts it there to be paid out? It aint the bondholders and mortgageholders. It is the working men that puts this money into the treasury, and I want it to remain there and go out to legitimate purposes. This will amount to more than eighteen thousand dollars. I tell you, you go on and it will soon come up. Before you have spent such an amount for the purpose of having these reports the debates reportedand they will all be lost, unless you make a further appropriation. I want the Constitution so plain that you don't need to spend fifty-seven thousand dollars, like the Illinois Convention. And I ask this Convention to place themselves on the record for retrenchment and reform, and against robbing the State of twenty or thirty thousand dollars; and I ask my friends to stand by me, and stand by the State, and save the State that large amount of money. MR. DOWLING. I would like to understand if that resolution determines first, that we have a reporter, or that we are going to determine about the salary, or what the reporter will get. Now, Mr. President, if that is so, the proper way is, to determine what the whole thing will cost, and then let us have a reporter afterwards. But it seems to me, Mr. President, that California, ever since she was admitted into the Union, was never in a condition that she was better able to dispense with the services of a Phonographic Reporter than she is at this date. I think, sir, that she trembles from San Bernardino to Siskiyou from the amount of taxation that is already piled upon her, and I, for one, will positively, first, last, and all the time, vote against piling any more taxation upon this State. I do it, sir, because jobs of this kind have been attempted many a time before, and were carried out very successfully, in order to defraud the public. Now if we get started in this reporting business it is only an entering wedge. We cannot tell where it will stop. This reporting will cost, the lowest sum is eighteen thousand dollars." MR. AYERS. Including the printing. MR. DOWLING. I say eighteen thousand five hundred and twenty. Is it not paying for the shadow of the substance? Is not the Constitution going to be the substance, and these debates and deliberations are to be the shadow. It is simply throwing money out of the treasury to immortalize a few eloquent men on this floor, who will have speeches in there to transmit to posterity. I hanker after no such notoriety, though I will help to build a Constitution that will protect that posterity and keep them from being robbed even now. I want to build it so strong, so compact, that it will be like a stone wall; and then, Mr. President, when it is built I want it plastered over, so that there won't be a crack in it, because these corporations and monopolies would run a locomotive or steamboat through a keyhole. When hear these men advocate in this House, I hear it from the great buglers of corporations; and anything I hear from them, I will object and protest, first, last, and all the time against them. Now, Mr. President, I contend that the minutes of this meeting are sufficient for us to refer to in future years. My vote is my record. When I leave this Convention I go back to the obscurity from whence I came. I don't want to deify any man. I vote against this thing first, last, and all the time. MR. SHOEMAKER. The question of printing the debates is an entirely different one from that of the reporting. It has nothing to do with it whatever. MR. BARTON. Inasmuch as the Chair has decided that the report of the committee is not subject to division, I hope that the amendment of the gentleman from Los Angeles, Mr. Howard, will prevail. I think that this is a useless waste of time. I do not rise for the purpose of making a speech. We will have ample time for that when the matter comes before this body in its proper light. I hope the motion of the gentleman from Los Angeles, or the amendment of the gentleman from Los Angeles, will prevail, and that we will bring this matter squarely before this body. MR. FILCHER. Mr. President: While I do not come here to make any buncombe speeches on matters of reform, economy, etc., yet, if any member of this Convention can point out to me clearly where I can save to the people of California a dollar, without restricting their rights, I stand here ready and willing to do so. At the same time, since the economical feature of this matter is being discussed, I rise to state that it presents itself to my mind in a different light than it seems to have done to some of the members. As I understand it, one hundred and fifty thousand dollars have been appropriated by the Legislature of the State of California to defray the expenses of this Convention. And it would seem to me that if we expend that money in simply wasting our time here in debating and wrangling, and then the result of our action should be repudiated by the people, then the people whom we represent have not one solitary dot to show as a return for the expenditure of their money. On the other hand, if we extend our liberality and manifest a little more generosity, we can devote this money, or a portion of it at least, to handing down to the people the ideas we have suggested, if, perchance, they may be of any use to them in the future in considering important constitutional matters. To my economical friends, the Workingmen, and my distinguished friend from Butte, who would save to this State every dollar they can-and I believe that they are honest in their convictionsit would seem at a glance that they want to gobble up all of it to pay salaries and not let a dollar of it go to the poor printer. MR. BIGGS. I call the gentleman to order. MR. FILCHER. I do say that it seems that these gentlemen who are opposing this proposition on the ground of economy, it would seem to me, that their motives must be that they wish to exclude the printers and reporters and all outsiders from getting their hands on any of this money in order that it may be retained in toto among the members in their per diem. Now, for my part, Mr. President, I repeat that I want to save every dollar possible to the people of the State of California, but since it is possible that we may expend this money and have nothing left to show for it, it seems to me that we should let the people know what is said upon this floor, and place them in a position that they can use our words here, and put them in a shape that will be of some service, and I offer the resolution, knowing what I do, in order to bring this matter to a head. I know that the State Printer is now sitting on the anxious seat to know what the Convention is going to do-whether we are going to print these reports or not. The reporters are also on the anxious seat waiting to know whether or not they are going to work. They are waiting here on time and expense. I know that there are a large number of printers in Sacramento anxious to know if the reports are to be printed. It is definitely understood from the most liberal calculations that the reports-the verbatim longhand reports of the proceedings shall not in any event, cost the State over eight thousand dollars, if the outside limit is attained, and if the session does not last one hundred days, the reports cannot cost more than six thousand five hundred dollars. MR. CAPLES. I desire merely to make a suggestion. There has been talk enough upon this subject in its present shape, and I merely desire to suggest to the members that before we consume any more valuable time in discussing this question, we had better decide whether we want a reporter. If it be a fact, and probably it is, that a majority of this Convention have predetermined against the employment of an official reporter-have predetermined that they will save the State this |