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Mrs. BYRON. General Becker.

General BECKER. Yes, Ma'am. We are just about to finish Madigan, the new hospital up there, and it will probably not require more personnel.

You are very familiar, I think, with the new hospital we plan in San Antonio.

Mrs. BYRON. I think I have heard of it.

General BECKER. Yes, Ma'am. I thought maybe this committee was familiar with that issue. But it is, of course, at a size-

Mrs. BYRON. What size is it? It fluctuates every time I hear about it.

General BECKER. Now?
Mrs. BYRON. Today.

General BECKER. The new hospital is now planned, as I understand it, to be at 450 beds. The old hospital has more beds than that at the present time.

Mrs. BYRON. Four hundred and fifty beds. Have we looked at the funding level?

General BECKER. The funding level is reduced from what it had been previously, as I saw in the publication the other day.

Mrs. BYRON. We were at 200 beds; we have now gone to 450 beds and reduced the funding. I want to find that contractor.

What else?

General BECKER. In Korea, we are replacing the hospital over there at Seoul, but it will be the same size hospital.

I think the thrust of your question was, do we have some big new things coming on that are going to be bigger and require more staff? I don't have anything on the books for that at the moment.

Mrs. BYRON. OK.
Admiral.

Admiral ZIMBLE. As you know, we just opened San Diego Naval Hospital—560 acute care beds. At the same time, we turned over 57-some-odd old buildings to the city, 3 of which they are going to keep. We are also keeping one of those buildings, Building 26. We will be using it for enlisted housing, but we are continuing to maintain in a mothball status some of the technical areas so that it can be converted, if necessary, in a crisis, to an additional 1,000 beds. In that way, we have gained a residual capacity at that facility.

I have to state that when we move from old hospitals to new hospitals, they are man-eaters, they are labor-intensive, they have a level of sophistication that doesn't require less people, it requires more people, and it requires people with higher levels of sophistication. We go from an open bay ward to two- and four-man rooms and individual rooms. The level must go up in staffing. So I see significant problems in trying to staff this new facility.

Mrs. BYRON. We are robbing Peter to pay Paul?

Admiral ZIMBLE. You bet, and we have a facility that is 1.2 million square feet under roof and has to be maintained. Now we want to do the same thing in Portsmouth.

Mrs. BYRON. Are we going to be manning San Diego at its full capacity, or are we going to be manning it at Mr. Ravenel's capacity in Charleston?

Admiral ZIMBLE. It currently is being manned at less than full with me, I am going to go into San Diego next week and I would be very happy to give you a report when I come back. I am going to be talking to staff there. I am going to be talking to staff that are totally demoralized because they cannot do as much as they want to do; they lack the support staff, as you have mentioned before.

I have a series of six cassette tapes that were provided to me by what I consider a patriot of Navy medicine, the department chairman who is retiring. He interviewed 40 members of the staff at San Diego, and it takes it from intellectual down to real feeling when you listen to these people tell you their problems. You have heard a lot of this, and I would be happy to share those six tapes with you, Mrs. Byron.

Mrs. BYRON. Let me once again just touch on an issue that I talked to the Secretary on, and that is the assignment of nonmedical personnel in the Mid-Atlantic Region. There again, we go right back to beating a dead horse again, so I will not pursue that. But I think you know our feelings on trying to man up without the proper categories and the proper personnel.

Admiral Zımble. If I could just make one very fast comment, it is not just Mid-Atlantic.

Mrs. Byron. I have no place to go; I'll be here for a while.

Admiral ZIMBLE. It is not Mid-Atlantic area; this happened at every one of our hospitals that supports either the hospital ship or one of our eight fleet hospitals. It was a decision made in December 1985.

Mrs. BYRON. Now is being implemented.

Admiral ZIMBLE. The beginning process of the implementation didn't hurt quite so much as now. But three things independently, three independent decisions, have come together on a collision course. One of them is a change of the designation of Portsmouth and Bethesda from taking care of the hospital ship. We have moved from Portsmouth to Bethesda, and that was a different manning structure. Second, it was a change from civilian ceiling points to an object class 11 portion of the OEMN which has managed the payroll. All three of those things happening simultaneously have certainly impacted our ability to maintain the payroll necessary to support the civilians that we require to do our job. Looking through the retrospectroscope, it was a terribly bad decision, and we are going to take that up at mid-year review, and I will be discussing that further with Admiral Edney and Admiral Smith.

Mrs. BYRON. This was what we were trying to address when we talked about the red flag issue. If you would flag these proposals and at least pull the medical people in, as General Becker, when you were pulled in, the decision was almost in gridlock by the time you got into the formula. So I think it is imperative that we take a look at these issues early on before we make mistakes that we are stuck with.

Let me thank the three of you once again for a long hearing. It amazes me that we have a full hearing room every time we have had a hearing. The hearings have gone over our time frame, and very few people leave. So we must be addressing a couple of nerves.

General Becker, you said that this was what you perceived would be your last appearance here. How soon do you hang the suit up?

General BECKER. The end of May.

Mrs. BYRON. Oh, we might have you back before then.
General BECKER. I look forward to it.
Mrs. BYRON. You may not be through with us yet.
General Chesney, thank you very much.
General CHESNEY. Thank you.

Mrs. BYRON. I appreciate Admiral Zimble. You will be around for a while?

Admiral ZIMBLE. Yes, Ma'am.
Mrs. BYRON. We can beat up you for a couple more years. Thank

you all.

[Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] [The following question was submitted for the record:]

QUESTION. Now that Defense has awarded a single operational test and evaluation (OT&E) phase contract to Science Applications International Corp., this next stage of the Composite Health Care System (CHCS) acquisition takes on even greater significance. The committee would like information on Defense's current operational test and evaluation plans and how OT&E activities would be financed from funds available in the fiscal years 1988 and 1989 program budget. In your response to the committee, (1) identify all operational test and evaluation sites; (2) provide your best estimate of when deployment of CHCS will begin and end at each site; and (3) identify the source of funding for each site by fiscal year and account; i.e. procurement, one-time operation and maintenance, or recurring operation and maintenance. Please be thorough; the committee's objective is to determine the level of CHCS funding needed to conduct a reputable operational test and evaluation.

Answer. All costs are displayed in millions of dollars. The projected CHCS costs by major cost category are displayed below by procurement and operations and maintenance accounts for fiscal years 1988 and 1989. Components of the Stage II contract “Other costs” are: project management; deployment, operations, maintenance management and support; software development center; software development; software maintenance; site surveys; and, Continuity of Operations Plan (COOP) and mobilization readiness programs. These costs are applicable regardless of the number of sites implemented, and therefore, are not prorated among the projected OT&E sites. OT&E costs include both Government (program office, contracting office, Military Department, program elements, and travel) and contract support (assessment, project control, systems engineering, data administration, cost analysis, and administration). The DOD fund allocation is the amount of the Defense appropriation or budget which the Department has allocated to CHCS.

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The Stage II contract costs which can be attributed to each CHCS site are displayed below.

STAGE II CONTRACT COSTS SPECIFICALLY ATTRIBUTABLE TO EACH CHCS SITE

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STAGE II CONTRACT COSTS SPECIFICALLY ATTRIBUTABLE TO EACH CHCS SITE

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Walter Reed AMC, DC.
NH San Diego, CA..

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STAGE II CONTRACT COSTS SPECIFICALLY ATTRIBUTABLE TO EACH CHCS SITE—Continued

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The DOD will not make a deployment decision until the completion of the OT&E. The significant milestones for each of the OT&E sites are indicated. The date on which the site survey is completed is the earliest date the contractor will install the CHCS. The phase-in start date is the projected date the contractor's installed system is first available for Government use. The projected completion date for the OT&E is July 1989.

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