against his opinion. The record is, according to the best of my recollection, pretty faithful. I am sure the substance is correct.

haps be desirable. The Bill prepared and brought in by the right hon. mover might, after the second reading, be filled up, pro forma, in a committee, and then be permitted to lie over till another session. But of these points it is hardly possible to judge, till we shall have made some progress in the work, to which we are now (I hope) approaching. Come what will, I am convinced that we shall never have occasion to regret any step which we may take in fulfilment of the promise of the last House of Commons, so much as we should the rejection of a measure, on which the attention and anxiety of the public have been suspended for so many years; which there is now no impediment to our entertaining, and which our predecessors in this House solemnly pledged themselves to entertain.

"I thought (said Mr. Pitt) that such concessions to his Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects might have been granted, by an united parliament, under such guards and securities for our civil and ecclesiastical constitution, as would entirely remove the danger which many apprehend might arise from so great a departure from the policy of former times; as would render the boon safe to the country, effectual to those who received, innocent to those by whom it was conferred, and conducive to the strength, unanimity and prosperity of the empire. Such were my sentiments formerly; such are they now; if, from a concurrence of circumstances it were expedient now to grant those concessions; and if by a wish I could carry such a measure into effect, I am ready to confess that I see no rational objection to it."

Sir, the name of Mr. Pitt having been introduced by an hon. gentleman (Mr. Tomline), who spoke early in this debate, and who is in every way entitled to the courtesy of this House, I cannot pass it over in silence. The hon. gentleman, a These words, these memorable words, young member of parliament, commenced are not to be effaced from the minds and his first address to us in a manner rather the hearts of those who heard them by extraordinary, by stating, that he rose to any reasoning; nor will it be pretended set the House right, in regard to a fact; I think, that between the day on which a fact certainly not within his own me- these words were uttered, the 14th of mory or knowledge, and upon which, May, 1805, and the day of Mr. Pitt's latherefore, he could only set us right, mented death, any thing had happened either by adducing some other authority which could work so fundamental a in support of his version of it, or by rea- change in his opinion as the hon. member soning. He quoted no other authority; assumed to have taken place in it between and his reasoning was this,-that, as Mr. his first and second administration. But Pitt had not latterly thought it right to if such were at the period to which I have bring forward the Catholic question, he referred, if such continued to the very end therefore must have changed his opinion of his life Mr. Pitt's opinions upon this upon it. Now this argument might pos- great subject, he was (says the hon. gensibly have weight some centuries hence, tleman) wholly unprovided with any means provided no records or recollection re- of carrying those opinions into effect. He mained of any of the circumstances of had no plan. Here again the hon. genMr. Pitt's last administration; but at pre- tleman speaks not from authority, but arsent, while there are so many even in this gumentatively; and his argument deHouse who had the opportunity of hear- serves particular notice for its ingenuity. ing that great stateman declare his own Mr. Pitt it seems had no plan,-for Mr. reasons for the abstinence which he unPitt did not communicate his plan to lord doubtedly practised in respect to the Ca- Eldon. The syllogism runs thus-Every tholic question, the conclusion of the hon. plan for settling the Catholic question gentleman can hardly be expected to must be communicated to the Lord Chanmeet with an implicit acquiescence. On cellor; Mr. Pitt did not communicate the 14th of May 1805, Mr. Pitt delivered, any such plan to the Lord Chancellor ; in this House, his then opinions and wishes Ergo, Mr. Pitt had no such plan. I will adon the subject of the admission of the Ro-mit the minor proposition if the hon. genman Catholic to the franchises of the con- tleman pleases; but negatur major. I will stitution. I have once before had occa- allow that Mr. Pitt made no such comsion to quote them in this House, whenmunication to lord Eldon, the avowed bis authority was once before quoted enemy of Mr. Pitt's known views of this

have interfered with their prayers or their advice, consider how much larger a body of the people have not interfered at all! What must their sense of the matter be supposed to be? Obviously, that they rest satisfied with the last determination of the House of Commons. And what was that last determination? It is recorded in the resolution of June 1812. The whole church of Scotland have been quiescent on the subject, with the exception of the presbytery of Glasgow, which, after discussing the propriety of petitioning on the subject, decided not to do so. Thus, in that country, where, a century ago, king William was obliged to take an oath to extirpate the Roman Catholics, not a voice is now to be heard in hostility to their being admitted to a just participation of the constitution.

question; but I utterly deny that it was incumbent on Mr. Pitt to make any such communication; or that his not making it warrants the hon. gent.'s conclusion. In truth, Sir, every man who hears me knows-it is notorious to all the world, what was the impediment to Mr. Pitt's pursuing his own views of this question. Whether he did right in yielding to that impediment or not, is a point which has been over and over again discussed in this House, and which I will not weary the House with re-debating at present. I think he was right in that forbearance. I have acted myself on the same principle of forbearance since his death. But the impediment is in force no longer; and I have in my own mind the most perfect conviction not only that Mr. Pitt never changed his opinion upon the subject, fundamentally, that he considered that opinion as suspended, not abandoned; and that had he been now happily alive, he would now have been pursuing the course which I think it my duty to pursue on this occasion. This, I say, is my own conviction. I do not pretend to state it as my knowledge. I ask no deference to any presumed authority of mine on this point. I stand on Mr. Pitt's recorded words, compared with his known conduct; known to all who either were contemporary with him in this House, or who have traced the history of his public and par-rity of the people, if I were not conscien liamentary life.

I vote therefore for going into the committee, in compliance with the prayers of the petitioners, who almost generally concur in praying for some final decision; in deference to the wishes of those whose very silence implies their expectation, their contented expectation, that we should now proceed to the consideration of this question in the manner and with the view prescribed and recorded by the last House of Commons; but neither should I be satisfied to give this vote in conformity to the inclinations of however large a majo

tiously convinced, at the same time, that by doing so I best consult the real and permanent interests of the British em、

After Mr. Canning had sat down, a very great uproar arose, and cries of "Ques tion, question," resounded from every corner of the House. Mr. Bathurst remained on his legs for some time, and all his endeavours to obtain a hearing were ineffectual. A motion for adjournment was made by Mr. Ryder and seconded: but on the remonstrance of Mr. Ponsonby the motion was withdrawn, and order being

I have now, Sir, little further with which to detain the House. In voting for the committee, with a view to the calm, deli-pire. berate, and dispassionate consideration of this great question, I fulfil not only my own sense of public duty, but I verily believe the wishes of a majority of the community, even as expressed in the petitions upon your table. Of those petitions many pray that the emancipation (as it is improperly called) of the Catholics, may not be unconditional. I agree with those petitioners. Some pray for the interference of the legislature for the final settlement of the dispute. I would grant the prayer of those petitioners also. Even to those whose petitions are drawn up in hostility to the grant of fresh concessions, I say, "we must go into a committee even to execute your purpose fully and satisfactorily. It cannot be believed that any thing short of a deliberate decision after full discussion will settle a question so long in dispute."

But beside the numerous petitioners who

restored:

Mr. Bathurst proceeded. He reminded the House of the manner in which this question was carried in the last year;— that it was done in the confident expecta tion, in which he certainly had not concurred, that such an arrangement might have been made with the Catholic body, as would have enabled the promoters of the measure to bring forward in this ses sion, a well-digested plan, mutually satis

He

The House divided at four o'clock on Wednesday morning.

224

For Mr. Grattan's Motion..... 264
Against it.........
Majority....

List of the Majority.

Cowper, hon. E. S.

Creevey, T.

-40

Croker, J. W.
Daly, rt. hon. D. B.
Dillon, hon. H. A.
Dundas, C.

Desart, earl of

Dundas, hon. L.

Duncanuon, visc.

Doveton, G.

Douglas, hon. F. S. N.

Douglas, W. R. K.

Dunlop, gen.

Elliot, rt. hon. W.

factory, of concession, guarded by securi- | be repealed. In answer to this, he said, ties. The proposed Bill, which had been that the oath alluded to was provisional, opened by the right hon. gentleman, con- and not fundamental; and to prove this tained a sweeping repeal of all restrictions; he quoted the authority of parliament in but not a word was said of the securities the time of queen Anne. which were to be substituted; yet it had been admitted, by a right hon. member, (Mr. Plunket) who had eloquently supported the motion, that some regulations were necessary; particularly with respect to the interference of the Pope, in the appointment of bishops. He would ask, what probability there was that any regulations would be submitted to by the Catholics? An hon. general (Mathew) who he believed was as likely to know the sentiments of the Catholics, had ridiculed the idea, and had claimed for them, on the ground of right, a full admission to all the offices of the state. complained, that there was a great misconception as to the mode in which this question was brought forward. It was certainly true, that such a question, affecting the national religion, must be considered in a committee; but he appealed to the practice of the House on former occasions, particularly when the relief from certain penal statutes was first granted to the Catholics, to shew that the petition for leave to bring in the Bill was first made, and then that motion was referred to a committee, in which the nature and object of that Bill were fully discussed and examin. ed. Whereas, by the present mode, the House was led on in the dark to give its countenance to measures, which, if explained in detail, it would never have sanctioned. He adverted to the manner in which the interference of the clergy had been treated, and contended there was no body of men whose opinions would so naturally be expected, or to which greater deference should be paid.

Mr. Grattan made a very brief reply. He said, that in all the speeches which had been made against his motion, the speakers had entered into a detail which was not sanctioned by the nature of the motion. The reason of which was, that they wished to go into the consideration of minute articles, in order to avoid the principle which they could not justly oppose. He had spoken with respect of the petitions, and therefore it was ridiculous to say that he had done otherwise. One argument was, that the oath which excluded Roman Catholics from parliament was a part of the Bill of Rights; and, of course, that when they should be admitted, part of that Bill would (VOL. XXIV.)

Abercromby, hon. G.
Abercromby, hon. J.
Acland, sir T..D.
Abercromby, Rt.
Anstruther, sir J.
Althorp, viscount
Arbuthnot, rt. hon. C.
Astley, sir J.
Atherley, A.
Aubrey, sir J.
Babington, T.
Bagwell, rt. hon. W.
Baring, A.
Barham, J. F.
Barnard, lord
Bennet, hon. H. G.
Birch, Jos.
Blachford, B. P.
Bowyer, sir G.
Bradshaw, hon. A. C.
Brand, hon. T.
Bective, earl
Brooke, lord
Brooke, C.
Browne, rt. hon. D.
Burrell, hon. P. R. D.
Buller, sir E.
Buller, A.,
Buller, C.
Burdett, sir F.
Benson, R.
Best, W. D.
Blundell, col.
Broadhead, H. T.
Bruen, H.
Canning, rt. hon. G.
Canning, G.
Calvert, N.
Carew, R. S.
Calvert, C.
Colthurst, sir N.
Coote, sir E.
Courtenay, W.
Courtenay, T. P.
Calcraft, J.
Campbell, lord J.
Castlereagh, visc.
Cavendish, lord G.
Cavendish, H.
Cocks, hon. J. S.
Chaloner, R.
Coke, T. W.
Coke, E.
Combe, H. C.

(3 Z)

Douglas, W.

Evelyn, L.

Ellis, C. R.

Ebrington, visc.
Ellison, C.

Fellowes, hon. N.
Ferguson, R. C.
Fitzgerald, Ll. H.

Fitzgerald, rt. hon. M.

Fitzgerald, rt. hon. W.
Fitzgerald, A.

Flood, sir F.

Fitzroy, lord C.

Fitzroy, lord J.

Foley, T.

Folkes, sir M. B.

Forbes, viscount

Fawcett, H.

Foster, F. J. H,

Foster, A.