sota-were true. I wish we were not facing a desperate crisis, but

we are.

Senator MCCARTHY. If I am wrong, I want to know it. Your engineers have been telling us that, prior to the influx of the war personnel into your area, you had been using, roughly, 30,000,000 gallons a day. Well, when you were using 30,000,000 gallons a day, your present facilities were sufficient. Not only were they sufficient, but they had built up a huge backlog of water in the reservoirs that you - needed. Now, during all that time there was, of course, that same evaporation which there will be during the next year. If your present facilities could take care of 30,000,000 gallons per day, could take care of the evaporation and could build up 59,000,000,000 gallons reserve, we must assume that if the weather is normal over the next 61⁄2 years, the present facilities will still take care of 30,000,000 gallons of evaporation. If we go a step further and assume that when you are withdrawing 20,000,000 gallons a day, your reservoirs are going to take care of San Diego for the next 612 years. I can't arrive at any other figure.

Senator DOWNEY. I just want to state to the committee that I am sure that the Senator's conclusions are totally wrong, and we have able engineers who are saturated with this as their life's work, who know these reservoirs-every square foot of them. I am informed that the two largest reservoirs at the present rate of withdrawal will be below the stage where any water can be drawn out of them this next August. Those are our two biggest reservoirs. By December we will be in great difficulty. This committee might perhaps think that then we ought to let our cows die and our chickens die and our orchards die by taking irrigation water away from the farmers, which could be done, probably, by very costly condemnation.

Senator MCCARTHY. Senator, don't misunderstand me. I don't question the wisdom of building this aqueduct as a reclamation project.

It might be an excellent idea. The only thing, I believe, that we are deciding today is whether or not the Navy should go into the construction of what, perhaps, should normally be a reclamation project, and if this is for the purpose of irrigating orchards and irrigating farms, then it definitely is not a Navy project but is a reclamation project.

Senator DowNEY. Now, Mr. Chairman, if the Senator from Wisconsin will permit me to divert a moment, first let me say I would very much appreciate having our expert water engineers immediately convince the committee of what I think the facts are at least whatever the facts are.

The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from San Diego can probably give more accurate information than some of the more general witnesses. Senator DOWNEY. I would like to attempt to answer the question of my good friend from Michigan by immediately announcing in advance that I admit the point that he attempts to make in his quesI was primarily the one who sought to have this aqueduct built by the Army or the Navy as a war enterprise, and I went to President Roosevelt upon that theory, and President Roosevelt told me that if he was convinced the condition was as I stated, and the matters were as critical as I stated, that it should be done as an emergency war item. I was the one who instituted the idea to have it

done by the military forces. The reason I did that was this: The crisis had been solely and wholly created by the war, and one-half of the water, roughly, that was being used in San Diego was being used by governmental agencies as a result of the war. There would have been ample water for San Diego if the war had not come on and the Government had not moved in hundreds of thousands of soldiers and sailors.

Senator MCCARTHY. I might observe here that the military personnel has never been accused of consuming too much water. [Laughter.] Senator DowNEY. Well, Senator, nevertheless, the water consumption in San Diego just about doubled as a result of the war-almost, but perhaps not quite.

I was out at those reservoirs in the fall of 1944 and I was then told by disinterested experts on whom I relied-and likewise exercised my own observation-that if we had low rainfall in 1944 and 1945, we would be facing a most critical condition. Now, I think we averaged about 15 inches a year over those 2 years. Instead of falling below the average in 1944 and 1945, we had very good years, so the crisis that I feared in 1944 did not develop, but looking at it from 1944 I felt that an incalculable injury might be done our war effort and our people in southern California if we did not get that Colorado aqueduct in as rapidly as posible. If we had had arid years we could not even have moved fast enough. We were fortunate in having two good years, and I felt that because this instrumentality was necessitated by the war, and because immediate action was required, it should be put into the Navy rather than attempting a longdrawn-out Reclamation Bureau project.

Let me say that while a portion of the water is now being used on orchards and poultry farms and dairy farms in San Diego, those people had long-established water rights and it was not they who were causing the crisis, because that was caused by governmental agencies. Senator FERGUSON. How much will this water rate drop when you get this project completed? Will the water rate drop?

Senator DowNEY. I would very much prefer to have the mayor of San Diego testify on that. We have been trying, I might say, to give the most favorable possible terms on water rates to the Army and Navy and to the public agencies. We have been trying to do that, and the mayor of San Diego, who is thoroughly familiar with all of these facts can state them much more accurately than I can.

Senator FERGUSON. I am very much interested today, when we are talking about budgets over on the Senate floor for the Army and Navy-those things that are absolutely essential for the defense of America-that we find in the budget such items as this, which should be under Reclamation or some other project. That is why it is rather illuminating to find that we are now supplying from the Navy funds going in the future to water for agriculture for this city which, as I understand it, is about the fifth city in the United States in area— that is the custom of California, to have a large area for a city so that they can have agriculture of the kind they have-and we do need it here in America, certainly-to find agriculture supplied from the city water facilities, and to find here that much of this water, and it may develop that most of the water consumed from these various sources, is consumed for agricultural purposes and not for actual consumption by the people.

I say it is very material that we go into this question now, since it has been raised here.

Senator DOWNEY. In the first place, Mr. Chairman, let me say that apparently what the Navy is being criticized for here is because Secretary Forrestal said to the people of San Diego: "You have either got to pay for this or we stop work." He is being criticized because he compelled the city of San Diego to pay for this aqueduct.

Senator FERGUSON. There is no criticism on my part.

Senator DOWNEY. Well, what is the criticism about, then?

Senator MCCARTHY. We are questioning the wisdom of the Navy Department spending money on this project and wondering if it should not be done as a reclamation project.

Senator THYE. May I make one further inquiry, inasmuch as the Senator said that the Secretary of the Navy compelled the city of San Diego to proceed to pay for the project or to arrange for the payment of it? I think you stated previously that the city was going to pay a rental of $500,000 per year. Am I right? That would be rental, and on that basis then you never would repay the $14.000,000 which the Navy is going to spend on this project, upon its commitments.

Senator DOWNEY. I think the agreement is that San Diego is to pay $500,000 a year until it has reimbursed the Navy Department for the total cost of the aqueduct with the Government subsidizing the project mainly by providing interest-free money.

Senator THYE. That has not been the statement, as the record will show.

Senator DOWNEY. I believe I am correct in saying that the Navy is subsidizing the project to the extent that it does not charge interest, which, of course, is a very important thing.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Downey, I believe that when you testified first you stated that-I think it was you, though it may have been Senator Knowland-that Secretary Forrestal had determined to cancel these contracts. This was after VJ-day, and you persuaded him to change his mind and let it go through.

Senator DowNEY. No; Mr. Chairman, I did not persuade him to change his mind. I think Secretary Forrestal threatened that unless San Diego would agree to pay for the reservoir, the Navy would not proceed with the construction, and upon those conditions they agreed to do it. I had nothing to do with that transaction.

Now, I want to speak further about this farming matter. The reason this Colorado aqueduct is necessary is the need for water required by governmental agencies. There would be plenty of water there for the citizens of San Diego. We had to put this aqueduct in because of the immense use by the Navy and other governmental agencies.

It is true, I might say to the Senators, that in constructing the aqueduct we are bringing in not only enough water to take care of the amount the governmental agencies are going to use, but likewise some additional water, and some of it, I presume, will be used for agricultural purposes, but primarily this aqueduct is necessitated at this time by the immense withdrawals of water by governmental agencies as a result of the war.

Senator MCCARTHY. Senator, you brought up the question of the extent to which we questioned Secretary Forrestal's right to proceed. I do not believe any of us question the wisdom of his negotiating with the city of San Diego. We, of course, will insist that he conform with

the law, and as I understand the law, it requires the approval of the House and Senate committees before they make a contract.

We may question the wisdom of a $14,000,000 advance, but I don't believe any of us question the wisdom of his proceeding to negotiate with the city of San Diego.

Senator DowNEY. Thank you, Senator. I want to make myself clear to the committee.

Senator MCCARTHY. I am not trying to speak for the whole committee.

Senator DOWNEY. I think everything has been done legally, and I think as soon as you hear the Navy you will be convinced that the Navy has acted legally.

The CHAIRMAN. I think the time has come when we should recess for lunch, and this afternoon we will hear Mayor Knox and officials from San Diego. We will hear them first. We hope their testimony will not be too long-drawn-out, so that we may then call the Assistant Secretary of the Navy and the officials of the Navy Department who, after all, are the ones that are mentioned in the Comptroller General's report.

Mr. WARNE. Mr. Chairman, before we adjourn, would it be satisfactory if I insert in the record, or give to you now, what appears to be a reconciliation of my figures with those of Senator McCarthy? The CHAIRMAN. You may do so.

Mr. WARNE. This statement shows that on February 18, 1947, there were 38,750 million gallons of water in the San Diego water-supply system, potable water; 10 billion gallons will be used in the next six and a half months, about 200 days, which would mean at that time, September 1, 28,750 million gallons provided there has been no evaporation, and assuming an evaporation of 4,370 million gallons and an additional consumer use, which amounts to a greater use down there in the summer than in the wintertime, leaves 24,380 million gallons of potable water on September 1.

Senator MCCARTHY. Assuming it does not rain.

Mr. WARNE. Well, at that time, if there were no rain-and this is based on that assumption-there would be only 4,880 million gallons in the main system of the city, and that would last only about 100 days, bringing us to December 1. On December 1 there would be about 19,500 million in the Morena-Barrett-Otay system, which cannot be put into the system at the rate of 50 million gallons a day, and therefore on December 1 there would be, I think, only about a fraction of the water supply available to the city that its present use indicates would be needed at that time.

Others will go into it in greater detail, but I think that my statement that early in 1948 it is conceivable that there can be an exhaustion of potable water is a justified statement.

The CHAIRMAN. It could rain.

Mr. WARNE. It could rain. Surely, we hope it does.

(Mr. Warne submitted the following paper:)

STATEMENT BY MR. WARNE BEFORE SENATE COMMITTEE ON EXPENDITURES IN THE

EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENTS

Gentlemen, my name is William E. Warne. I am Assistant Commissioner of the Bureau of Reclamation, and I am appearing today to testify in connection with the construction of the San Diego aqueduct as the member, still in Govern

ment service, of the committee appointed by President Roosevelt in October of 1944 to study, report, and make recommendations on methods of financing the construction of facilities necessary for the transfer of Colorado River water to the city of San Diego. President Roosevelt by letter of October 3, 1941, to me, copy of which is attached to this statement as exhibit 1, designated me as the chairman of an interdepartmental committee to be composed, in addition, of one member each from the War Department, the Navy Department, the Federal Works Agency, and the San Diego County Water Authority. This letter requested the committee to direct its efforts toward recommendations, after study, on the following specific points:

(a) The extent of Federal and local participation in the financing of the construction proposed.

(b) The extent to which the additional facilities are required as a result of Federal activities in connection with the prosecuting of the war.

(c) The source of Federal funds for the work.

(d) The existing laws under which the development might be authorized. (e) Additional legislation which might be required.

(f) Any other matters relating to the subject which the committee may deem pertinent.

The committee's report was to be forwarded through the Secretary of the Interior and to be accompanied by his comments.

This action by the late President resulted from a letter of September 25, 1944, addressed to him by Senator Downey. Senator Downey pointed out in his letter, copy of which is appended as exhibit 2, the critical situation of the San Diego water supply. Senator Downey, he pointed out, was prompted to bring the matter to the President's attention by the fact that, as chairman of a subcommittee of the Senate Military Affairs Committee, he had been investigating war-related problems in California. The Downey committee had held hearings in San Diego at which both Army and Navy representatives had expressed grave concern over the then existing water-supply situation.

Coincidently with the President's letter of October 3, 1944, to me, he dispatched memoranda to the Secretaries of War and Navy and the Administrator, Federal Works Agency, advising each of his establishment of the committee to study and make recommendations with respect to the San Diego water-supply problem, and requesting each in turn to appoint a representative from his department. Copies of these memoranda are appended as exhibits 3, 4, and 5. The President also on this same date advised Senator Downey of the action he had taken. this letter is appended as exhibit 6.

A copy of

To complete the committee, Acting Secretary of the Interior Abe Fortas, by letter of October 5, advised the San Diego County Water Authority of the President's action and requested that organization also to name a representative to serve on the committee. A copy of this letter is appended as exhibit 7. In response to these communications, the Secretary of War designated Maj. Gen. Eugene Reybold, then Chief of Engineers, United States Army; the Secretary of the Navy designated Vice Adm. Ben Moreell, then Chief, Bureau of Yards and Docks, United States Navy; the Federal Works Administrator designated the late Mr. Baird Snyder, then Assistant Administrator of the Federal Works Agency; the San Diego County Water Authority designated Mr. Phil D. Swing, its attorney, as members.

The first meeting of the committee was called for October 16, 1944, in Washington. With the designation of a specific day for this meeting, Acting Secretary of the Interior Fortas telegraphed the late Mr. Walter Cooper, city manager of the city of San Diego, inviting him to attend the committee meeting and to submit information.

The city of San Diego, of course, had been cognizant of the fact that eventually an increased supply of potable water must be obtained for the city to supplement its locally developed sources. With an allocation of 112,000 acre-feet annually reserved for its use in Lake Mead, the reservoir created by Boulder Dam on the Colorado River, the city of San Diego as early as 1932 had made contractual arrangements with the Bureau of Reclamation to obtain capacity in the AllAmerican Canal. Later the city and the county contracted with our Bureau for investigations of the construction of an aqueduct to connect the Colorado River aqueduct of the Metropolitan Water District of Southern California with the city's San Vicente Reservoir, as compared with the construction of the necessary facilities to bring the Colorado River water from the All-American Canal to the city's El Capitan Reservoir. I give this background to show that the local people had