Mayor KNOX. Yes, sir; I think we have a number. I doubt if it would represent probably one-fifth of 1 percent of our total water output, however. There are very, very few.

San Diego is largely an urban area, in the scattered region in between which there are large areas of sagebrush and cactus.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know what the Congressman referred to when he stated that you had to have the water or your fruit trees would die and your vegetables would not grow, and the livelihood of many of the people from agriculture would be lost without this?

Mayor KNOX. Yes, sir. I think I probably can explain, sir. San Diego County is twenty-third in the United States as far as counties go with respect to its agricultural produce in dollars. However, those are not tied in to our system.

The CHAIRMAN. Where do they get water?

Mayor KNOX. And in the projected water district of the San Diego County Water Authority, somewhere around 2 percent of that total is represented by, and the legal use of that water is restricted to, irrigation areas.

In the city of San Diego, for instance, the water will be allocated according to law, according to the assessed valuation of the property within any given area. The city of San Diego will represent 85 percent of the water authority which is the over-all San Diego city and/or county district.

We have a group of satellite cities-National City, Chula Vista, Ocean City, La Mesa, which are very largely urban in character, and which will by themselves use their proportionate amount of water. Now, our hydraulic engineers estimate about

Senator THYE (interposing). Mr. Chairman, in order that we do not lose sight of that, you say these other cities are a part of this particular district or area that will also be supplied, because they are all drawing water from the same source that you are drawing water from? Mayor KNOX. Not at the present time, sir.

Senator THYE. No; but are they to be figured into this new project? Mayor KNOX. Yes, sir; they are included. The city of National City

Senator THYE (interposing). Where are they obtaining water from now?

Mayor KNOX. Private utilities, in some cases, and in some cases from their own developed utilities which now are inadequate.

Senator THYE. When you say private utilities, that would be pumped water?

Mayor KNOX. No, sir.

Senator THYE. That would be irrigation or dams that are established in the irrigation ditches supplying the water, or in what manner are the utilities supplying that water?

Mayor KNOX. Well, for instance, in National City and Chula Vista, they are served by a private utility which owns two reservoirs on the Sweetwater River on which we have no water rights as the city of San Diego.

Senator THYE. On this Sweetwater River?

Mayor KNOX. Yes, sir.

Senator THYE. You have no water rights there at all?

62917-47- -8

Mayor KNOX. No, sir.

Senator THYE. They have it?

Mayor KNOX. That is the privately operated utility, and they are currently selling their water to these two areas. However, their water, likewise, is becoming perilously short.

Senator THYE. Because of the expanded acreage, and that would be a reclamation project.

Mayor KNOX. Expanded population.

Senator THYE. I know, but acreage goes with population; you will admit that.

Mayor KNOX. No, sir; I will not. That is not true in San Diego. There has been little growth in irrigated acreage in San Diego in the last 10 years.

Senator THYE. I grant you that, but we were speaking about two other cities when you jumped back to San Diego.

Mayor KNOX. San Diego County.

Senator THYE. I see; thank you.

Mayor KNOX. There has been little growth in that. Our growth has been largely urban.

Senator MCCARTHY. Mr. Chairman, if I might again impose upon the membership of the committee. As I told the chairman, I have to leave very shortly, and I would like to have Mr. Knox clear up this matter of the 59,000,000,000 gallons.. Just how many gallons are available to the city of San Diego?

Mayor KNOX. If the Senator will be patient with me, I will try to explain it. We have several water systems that feed into the city of San Diego, and if you have the chart there showing the present impounded gallonage in each reservoir, you can see. Do you have that, sir?

Senator MCCARTHY. Yes; I have that. It does not show the present impounded gallonage. It shows it as of May 1, 1946.

Mayor KNOX. Well, I have it up to January 21.

Senator MCCARTHY. You do not have an extra copy, do you? Mayor KNOX. I do not have an extra copy, but I would be glad to lend this to you because I have it written down in notes.

Now, if you will refer to the middle of that page, we have the El Capitan and San Vicente and Murray Dams included. And, opposite the names of each dam is represented the figure of total water impounded as of January 21.

Senator MCCARTHY. If I understand your method of bookkeeping, the upper figure represents 10,970,000 gallons.

Mayor KNOX. That is right-in El Capitan Reservoir. And in San Vicente Reservoir, 4,500,000,000. And in the Murray, which is a little distribution reservoir within the city limits which we use to hold back in case of a break in the line or something like that. The El Capitan figure is 10,970,000,000. So, we have a total there of about 16,000,000,000 gallons.

Senator MCCARTHY. How much of that is potable?

Mayor KNOX. Our bydraulic engineers tell us there are about 7,000,000,000 gallons in that system that is potable, not including or not taking into consideration evaporation.

I should like to read to you a quote from the report of the hydraulic engineer, Mr. Fred Pile, to the city manager and mayor and council.

Senator MCCARTHY. Before we get to that, let me ask this: How much of that water is available to the San Diego area?

Major KNOX. Whatever we can get out of it.

Senator MCCARTHY. Now then, going to the Otay system-is that right?

Mayor KNOX. Yes, sir.

Senator MCCARTHY. The next one down the line.

Mayor KNOX. First, may I point out that of this 7,000,000,000 gallons of potable water would represent about a 280-day supply based on a 30,000,000 gallon a day withdrawal.

Senator MCCARTHY. Then, going on to the next-the Otay system. Mayor KNOX. The Otay system is composed of three successive dams or reservoirs in lowering stages.

Senator MCCARTHY. Just so we can cut this short, there are 33,000,000,000 gallons in that system?

Mayor KNOX. Yes, sir.

Senator MCCARTHY. How much of that is available to the city of San Diego?

Mayor KNOX. We can only get into the city, including pumping, downhill operations, 20,000,000 gallons a day.

Senator MCCARTHY. 20,000,000 gallons a day?

Mayor KNOX. Yes, sir.

Senator MCCARTHY. How much of that is potable?

Mayor KNOX. We feel there is enough water there, at 20,000,000 gallons a day, to last almost 2 years—at 20,000,000 gallons a day.

Senator MCCARTHY. Is there any reason why you cannot draw from the San Diego system and the Otay system? Can you draw on both systems at the same time?

Mayor KNOX. We do, and are at the present time.

Senator MCCARTHY. There is sufficient in the Otay System to last how many years?

Mayor KNOX. Somewhere between a year and a half and 2 years at 20,000,000 gallons a day.

Senator MCCARTHY. I do not follow your arithmetic on that; 33,000,000,000 gallons at 20,000,000 gallons a day would be 1,500 days more than that.

Mayor KNOX. Sir, you are trying to get a lot of hydraulic engineering into 5 minutes of testimony. You see, Morena and Barrett Lakes are far up in the mountains. That water runs down an open streambed for 15 miles on its way to the Otay Reservoir. Our wastage of water is 15 to 18 percent at that point.

Then we have the unpotable portion of water that is in the bottom of each and every reservoir, and there are three involved.

Senator MCCARTHY. Those reservoirs are constantly being filled from rain water, right?

Mayor KNOX. Well, that is something that I want to again correct you on, sir, because it was referred to this morning that 10 inches of rainfall is our average rainfall, and I want to assure you that rainfall in San Diego and in California is not synonymous with run-off.

Senator MCCARTHY. 33,000,000,000 gallons you are withdrawing at the rate of 20,000,000 gallons a day. If I am right in this, it would, mean you would have enough to last over 1,500 days, roughly around 5 years. Am I right?

Mayor KNOX. No. No, sir; you are not right.

Senator MCCARTHY. It is entirely possible that I am not.
Mayor KNOX. Let us take the two top reservoirs.

Senator MCCARTHY. Let us divide 33,000,000,000 by 20,000,000.
Mayor KNOX. Well, it is the wrong kind of arithmetic, sir.

Senator MCCARTHY. How much of that 33,000,000,000 is potable? Mayor KNOX. We have two factors here. We have two that make a run down on open stream bed to the top reservoirs.

Senator MCCARTHY. Before it hits the reservoir?

Mayor KNOX. Before it hits the Otay Reservoirs. In those two reservoirs we have about 20,000,000,000 gallons of water. We reduce that an estimated 15 percent of loss running downhill and through a long creek, and arrive at about 17,000,000,000 that is left in that system. All of this 17,000,000,000, then, is delivered into Otay. That is, providing it was all potable.

Now, there is about 8,000,000,000 in that 17,000,000,000 in those two reservoirs up there that is not potable, so we get back down to about 9,000,000,000 left.

Senator MCCARTHY. I am afraid I do not follow you. You have Morena and Barrett Dam and Upper Otay and Lower Otay.

Mayor KNOX. Upper Otay is just a mudhole-just a block across. Senator MCCARTHY. Let us forget about it and take the other three. As of today, those three reservoirs today contain roughly 33,000,000,000 gallons of water. Right?

Mayor KNOX. Yes, sir.

Senator MCCARHY. Now, from those reservoirs, where does the water

go?

Mayor KNOX. From Morena Reservoir, the water runs into Barrett Reservoir, which is 6 miles downstream.

Senator MCCARTHY. How much wastage is there between those two reservoirs?

Mayor KNOX. I do not know. It is a 6-mile run. It would not be extremely heavy; it is in rocky country. From Barrett———

Senator MCCARTHY (interposing). Let me ask you something else now. In the run from Morena to Barrett, I assume that stream is also being fed by mountain streams. Am I right?

Mayor KNOX. Yes, sir; when there is a run-off.

Senator MCCARTHY. In other words, if 10,000,000 gallons leave Morena Reservoir and start out in this ditch to Barrett, there are feeding streams into this main stream, too; so as well as the loss there can be a gain?

Mayor KNOX. There can be in about 3 months of the year, providing the rains come all at once.

Senator MCCARTHY. Of course, at times of the year there is a gain and at times there is a loss.

Mayor KNOX. That is right.

Senator MCCARTHY. Then it hits the Barrett Reservoir; and from there where does it go?

Mayor KNOX. From there it is conducted through a canal into an open stream bed in another valley. It runs about 15 or 16 miles down into Otay Lake.

Senator MCCARTHY. Lower Otay?

Mayor KNOX. That is right.

Senator MCCARTHY. You say there is a considerable waste between the Barrett Reservoir and Lower Otay?

Mayor KNOX. Yes.

Senator MCCARTHY. Roughly how much?

Mayor KNOX. About 15 percent.

Senator MCCARTHY. Then, instead of having 33,000,000,000, you would have slightly over around about 28,000,000,000-a little better. Right? Take 15 percent off 33,000,000,000, and you have somewhat over 28,000,000,000 that would reach Lower Otay.

The CHAIRMAN. How far is Lower Otay from the city?
Mayor KNOX. Oh, it must be about 15 or 18 miles, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How does the water go from Lower Otay to the city? Through an aqueduct?

Mayor KNOX. We have a pipe line; yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. So, there is no evaporation there.

Mayor KNOX. We attempted increasing the capacity by pumping the water down hill.

Senator MCCARTHY. You get down to the Lower Otay, and you took a 15-percent loss on the amounts in all of the reservoirs. You would have in excess of 28,000,000,000. However, we do not take a 15-percent loss from the 12,000,000,000 gallons in Lower Otay because it is already there. Right?

Mayor KNOX. I did not understand that.

Senator MCCARTHY. Have you 12,000,000,000 gallons in the Lower Otay as of now, so in taking your 15 percent loss you only take that from water in Morena and Barrett.

Mayor KNOX. That is correct. That is why I only took 15 percent off the capacity of the two top reservoirs.

Senator MCCARTHY. When it gets down to Lower Otay, where does it go before it hits the city of San Diego? We have roughly 30,000,000,000 gallons of water. Where does it go from there.

Mayor KNOX. Yes, sir; about 30,000,000,000.

Senator MCCARTHY. Well, I hate like the devil to leave at this point.

Mayor Knox. In your absence I can probably do a lot better.
Senator MCCARTHY. I am afraid you will. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRMAN. The Senator will be back tomorrow, however. Mayor KNOX. Does the chairman wish to continue this point fur. ther, sir?

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any questions to ask?

Mr. MACOMBER. One minor point: You said that the potable water in the San Vicente and El Capitan was about 7,000,000,000?

Mayor KNOX. Seven billions; yes, sir.

Mr. MACOMBER. I was looking for a place in here where I think your hydraulic engineer stated it was 8,000,000,000. That is not much, but it is very nearly a month's supply.

Mayor KNOX. If I may read the hydraulic engineer's statement into the record, maybe it will serve to clarify that. Maybe I am wrong. There have been lots of sixes, sevens, eights, and nines tossed around. Thus far in 1946-47 run-off season there has been little run-off impounded at El Capitan and San Vicente Reservoirs. On February 11 last year there were 23,476,000,000 gallons of water in the two reservoirs, and on the same date this year 15,203,000,000. As the last