d be take any rotten patent medicines or certain political ads, nor any: against the Socialist party. At that time I classified Darrow's adverent as a political meeting, because that crowd was trying to start an oration against us. They used Darrow. I remember L. Wyrick. I don't mber any conversation with him at the time of his enlistment. They never me why our paper was excluded from the mails. They said they objected e tendency of the paper. I heard the statement read into the record yesy and they said they objected to the tendency and not to any certain arIt was their opinion that our paper and the editorials were calculated ir up insubordination and disloyalty. It was not my opinion. I don't think the solicitor for the post office department stated that those articles and those editorials served to obstruct the government in the prosecution of the war in so many words. I didn't know why our paper in trouble because he only objected to the tendency. He read my editorials e time, a large number which in his opinion, though not in mine, served barrass the government and obstruct the recruiting and enlistment service e United States. Shortly after that, after the second class mailing priviwas taken away, my lawyer went into the District Court of the District lumbia in some sort of a procedure, mandamus, I suppose, I was defeated e first instance, and we appealed the case. irst heard of the Espionage Act when it was promulgated in the House, it was proposed. We received the Congressional Record, of course, and ed a report of it at the time. I don't remember when I first heard of it. pose it was a short time after April 6th, I could not positively state. I ot keep in closer touch with it than we did on any other legislation which n't like. We carried newspaper items on the fact that there was a pretty ic bill pending in Congress, worse than the bill of 1799, the Alien and ion bill. I suppose we carried that in the early part of May, 1917, like thers papers and in a general way knew of its pendency and sometime e its enactment into law. They appointed me on a committee to confer lawyers about the constitutionality of the selective act. I only attended a meeting with a lawyer from Janesville, I believe. That meeting was I think in the office of Mr. John Kleist. He is a good Socialist, a lawyer. I don't know the date. emember C. E. Ruthenberg. I met him once at the convention. He had trouble; I don't know what it was, and the lawyer from Janesville said hould wait until the Ruthenberg case was decided in the Supreme Court e United States and then we would have a decision. That does not tend the time of the conversation. My purpose in trying to find out about the itutionality of the law was in order to test the law, because Socialist opposed to conscription as a matter of course, everywhere, and if the er from Janesville had advised us that the law was unconstitutional we ted possibly to test the law in the courts. We would have a right to do to test it, and to test it we were not going to have some young man refuse gister. That is not the way we do. We are lawful above all things, when we hate laws and lawyers, we are legal. The purpose in going there to test the law. If the law wasn't right then we would simply reverse it ty. If he had told me the law was unconstitutional I would not advise the list party accordingly on one lawyer, because I know from old experience four lawyers have five opinions, so one lawyer would not go at all. We I simply test it in the courts, and if he said it was constitutional we would it right then and there; that is all we wanted to know. We were going to say to the young man in Milwaukee to obey the law. It was not necessary to tell the people to obey the law and register. Our boys obeyed to the dot. I don't think we had any desertions up in Milwaukee y knowledge. That is a State that went way over than the top better any other. I heard Melms testify that he was chairman of District No. 8, hat there was not a single man reported from that district to the Federal rities for desertion. Do you know that in that district there were 33 I don't know. You told me that for the first time. bjection by defendants on the ground that it misstates the testimony: roper cross examination and not proper inquiry to make of this witness out any testimony on which to base it.) bjection overruled by the court, and exception by each defendant.) n Further objection all reference to the testimony of Melms was stricken y the court.) The Witness: We went over the top in everything in Milwaukee, so far I know. I helped inasmuch as I kept the population there exceedingly abiding and we had less trouble there than any other city and I promul a philosophy in that town which is probably not represented in any other in the United States. That Philosophy did not result in a vast number of sertions up there. I don't know that in District No. 8 there 33 de 1773 tions, and didn't know it until I heard it here. I didn't know anyth about 1004 desertions or delinquents in the City of Milwaukee. Ide know anything about it and I didn't. It was never printed in any paper art never heard of it until I heard of it in this room. Our city went over top in the Liberty Loan and we are very proud of it too. I didn't use paper editorially to boost the Liberty Loan. We used our paper to boost Red Cross. I don't know when, but I will say this that we are not in symp with this war. It was a capitalistic war from our point of view but we w obeying the law and did all that we had to, but we are no hypocrits and were not going to do anything we did not believe in. The conscription law absolutely obeyed. I don't know whether our paper editorially or otherwise urged that me into the United States service in the army or the navy. I didn't write al editorials. I never wrote any editorial at any time urging young men to go in the army or navy of the United States. I remember the three propositions in Government Exhibit 130, a letter dr May 7. 1917 from Germer to myself and the National Committee submitting the propositions. I don't remember how I voted on the first. I voted yes of third proposition. If the record says yes, then I voted yes. I suppose I was Milwaukee when I voted Yes. I don't know. I suppose young men who w asking us for advice would be disposed to go and register by our referri 1774 them to the St. Louis proclamation and war program. I don't see w they would not. It would have the effect of encouraging them as m as the ten commandments would not influence them one way or the other. Tr is our international socialist platform or position, and otherwise they are obey the laws and that is all there is to it. The St. Louis platform in no p says not to obey the law. While I was at St. Louis I made certain recommeta tions in addition to the platform itself: "We recommend that this convert instructs our elected representatives in Congress, State legislatures, and in 1 bodies to vote against the proposed appropriations or loans for military na and other war purposes. We recommend that the convention instruct the National executive committee to extend and improve the propaganda ame women because they as housewives and mothers are now particularly ready accept our message. We recommend that the convention instruct the Nati Executive committee to initiate an organized movement of socialist orga workers and other anti-war forces for concerted action along the lines of t platform. Our representatives in Congress in the legislatures of the differs states and in all local bodies shall vote against appropriations or loans for Ea tary, naval and other war purposes." The socialist position is we were prepared to loan to the government in connection with this war. Part of socialist propaganda is among women. We want all the women. We 1775 want them in every situation and also in this particular situation recommendation No. 2 that we get busy to carry on propaganda an the women because they are now particular ready to receive the message reference. I suppose, to the proclamation and war program. I don't kn so, because we want the women all the time. I suppose that's the way proclamation and war program was sent out. "Anti-war forces" in the 20 recommendation means pacifist forces of course; that is the socialist posit the world over, the international socialist position. This conversation with Haessler, when advised to put on the uniform and and obey the law, was I suppose just before he left for camp. I am sorry he refused to put on the army uniform. Of course, the indictment in this had nothing to do with that to my knowledge. He was not indicted. An order was given for one hundred of the bill boards, nine by twenty f and 50 were posted up through different portions of Milwaukee after I given orders, and I hope the $614 is paid to the Cream City Advertising Co pany, usually it is. 64 War is Hell, caused by capitalism; Socialists demand Peace. Read peoples' side, the Milwaukee Leader, Victor Berger, editor." At that tim n mind the effect it would have on peace. I emember the appeal for funds in the latter part of September and October, I e title to the American Socialist I believe belongs to the party. I don't whether the title stands in the name of the executive committee and If among them. That is a matter of record. I received it regularly during ear 1917 when the postoffice didn't hold it back. I didn't read it regularly. a't know how many issues of it after our severance of diplomatic relations ebruary 3, 1917, I read. You see, I get about 15 dailies at home every day les those in the office. I know the socialist side. I have to read the other too. In a general way I knew what the American Socialist was printing t the war anyway. I didn't make any effort to change the policy of the rican Socialist. net Walter Wyrick first about 8 years ago when I was in Washington. He remember in a general way the time Wyrick enlisted. He first went as a L sonally. I don't think it was to me personally. It was on the entire staff don't know how many letters Mr. Milroy or Mr. Plummer took. We handed ov the whole business and they took it whatever they chose, and they took wh ever they pleased to take. I didn't hand them anything. They took what the wanted. I didn't get a receipt on that occasion. I suppose the business mana did. I don't remember whether they were in my office about 15 minutes t first time. Redirect Eramination by Mr. Cochems. The folder handed me is the colored section of the Chicago Sunday TrDLE, of May 27th, 1917. I get the Tribune regularly and I have seen it of coure (The document referred to was thereupon marked Defendants' Exh 67.) 1780 Witness continuing: It was one of the papers in my mind wher paper published cartoons which have been introduced in evidence, b this, called "Anti-Socialist Voices" at page 50, only a part of the art appearing there under the title "Internationalism, Peace and War" was 7: by Mr. Fleming this morning. The date of the Morroccan trouble in Eure was the fall of 1911. The reporter of the New York Times looked me up the hotel Martinique to get this interview from me. (Thereupon read said article to the jury.) 1781 That was in 1911, and that is my position to-day, and it has neve wavered. On July 25th, that's the last issue of the German Vorwaerts In ceived in this country, the entire first page was taken up with a proclamati against the war, asking the working class of Berlin, that is where the pa is printed to assemble at 60 different places to protest against the war. Tha is the official Socialist Organ "The Vorwaerts." I can get the English tra lation out of this book. The war was opened, the immediate outbreak, j about that day, or one or two days later, July 24th, 25th or 26th. August 2 was the official date the first hostile overt act. The copy of the article from the Vorwaerts of July 25th, 1914 was read the jury, as follows: "They want war, the conscienceless elements which influence and coNING the Vienna Court. They want war-the wild cries of the sensational pres have proved it for weeks. They want war-the Austrian ultimatum to Servi makes it clear and public to all the world. * * For this ultimatum both in its manner and in its demands is so shameless that a Servian government, which, humbled by this note, should draw back would have to reckon with the possibility that it would be driven out by t masses of the people between dinner and dessert. * * * "It was an act of criminal frivolity on the part of the German press 1782 to urge on its dear allied comrades to the last extremities in their les for war. But in Berlin there is being played just as dangerous a galle as in Vienna. For in a policy of adventure, one can only know how it begins but not how it is to end, and if it comes to a great European conflict, the highly undesired things might go to pieces in Germany, things which is Germany are reckoned among the most sacred institutions." William Walling is one of the best compilers we have; he has publishe a good many books. This is his book; it appears to have been given to f public in 1915, and Henry Holt & Company appear to be the publishers. These are translations of what appear to be editorials in the Berlin Vorwaerts and re printed in this book, following July 25th up to August 4th. This book als reports what purports to be the declaration of the German Socialist party August 4th, the day before the war opened on the 5th. This is not from th Vorwaerts: it is the official declaration of the party. I don't know where comes from. (Said article containing the following designation was read to the jury "The official party explanation of this act, read by Haase, chairman of the Reichstag delegation at the session of August 4th was as follows:") Walling got out of the Socialist party because of what he was dealing wit as a writer; he was a member for awhile. Said article was read to the jury as follows: 1783 "The socialist party declaration on voting for the war loan." A most serious hour is upon us, an hour in which a matter of life at death confronts us. The results of the imperialistic policy which furnish e for the entire world to take up arms and permits the horrors of war ngulf us, the results of this policy, I say, have broken forth like a storm 1. The responsibility for this calamity falls upon supporters of this policy. ourselves, are not responsible. (Applause.) The Social Democratic party has always combated this policy to the st, and even to this hour we have agitated for the maintenance of peace great demonstrations in all countries, and above all, by our co-operation our French brothers. Our exertions have been in vain. And now we only too surely confronted by the fact that war is upon us and that we are aced by the terror of foreign invasion. The problem before us now is not relative advisability of war or peace, but a consideration of just what s must be taken for the protection of our country. At this moment let us k of the millions of our compatriot comrades, who, through no fault of r own, will be involved in this calamity; it is they who will suffer most ely from the devastation that war inevitably brings in its train. Our best wishes accompany those of our brothers who have been sumed to arms, no matter what their party. (Applause from all parties.) We think also the mothers who must be separated from their sons, and of the wives and children who are being robbed of their bread-winners and who in consequence dwell in constant torment and fear as to the of their loved ones, threatened themselves, meanwhile by the terrible rd of hunger. Tens of thousands will be wounded or will return as invalids. Let us reI it as our duty to assist these unfortunates, to mitigate their sufferings, to minister to their indescribably need. But as far as concerns our people its independence, much, if not everything, would be endangered by a mph of Russian depotism, already weltering in the blood of her most est sons. It devolves upon us, therefore, to avert this danger to shelter the civilion and independence of our native land. Therefore, we must to-day ify what we have always said. In its hour of danger Germany may ever upon us. We take our stand upon the doctrine basic to the international labor ́ement, which at all times has recognized the right of every people to onal independence and national defense, and at the same time we conin all war for conquest. We hope that as soon as our opponents are ready for negotiations, an will be made to the war and a state of peace induced which will make sible friendly relations with our neighbors. "We do not regard this in the light of a contradiction to our duty 5 in connection with international solidarity to which we are just as firmly bound as to Germany itself. We hope that this fatal strife will prove esson to the millions who will come after us, a lesson which will fill them h lasting abhorrence for all warfare. May they be converted by this to ideal of Social Democracy and international peace. And now, bearing se thoughts in mind, we give our sanction to the voting of those moneys anded. (Applause from all parties.)" he position of the Socialist party in every country at war was against war; I the party in Italy went on a general strike and prevented Italy getting on the side of Germany and Austria; that lasted for about a week; several dred Italian workmen were shot down but the country didn't go into the r on the side of Germany and Austria. The position in all of the other ntries was even much stronger, because this which was read was the therest any Socialist party had done, because they voted for the credit; no er party did. The English Socialist party split part voted for and part ed against it, and the French Socialists split. That was the only time they ed it in Germany; right after that they also split. The minority never ed for any money again. Liebknecht and Haase, who read the document, re the leaders of the minority group. Dittmann was a minor deity. Later on y went so far as to try to organize the military against the Government and to organize a mutiny. They called Liebknecht to the colors and he 6 made a speech to that effect in Berlin one day in uniform, trying to organize the soldiers and telling them to leave the trenches, shoot the cers and go home. That is according to the dispatches. He was court rtialled and sentenced to 30 months imprisonment and was freed shortly ore the German revolution. Dittmann did the same thing, trying to organize |