st exactly; that is what I mean to do.

v some of those pamphlets in a large wooden box in the Socialist heads, usually in the shipping room, which was in charge of Charles O. Sherhat is the only place I saw them that I remember; all that I remember In the shipping room.

I took charge of this department I did not receive any orders for literahey did not go to me, they were not handled by me, they had a clerk for Irs. Ray, and I think she handled them most of the time, and part of the rs. Read. I had nothing to do with filling or receiving the orders except to look over them after they had been filed to see what was moving. I saw orders, usually saw them on the desk of the shipping clerk after he had filled them.. I was interested in knowing what was and what ot moving; it was a part of my business to know what was going on. I not see the orders when they came in until they were filled. Mrs. Ray, as in Mr. Germer's office, would receive the orders; she was attending literature department, receiving the orders, but not filling them; that one by Mr. Sherman, the shipping clerk. Once in a while Mrs. Ray inquire of me whether I had certain literature, and I would say I nd she would say alright, make out the shipping blank and give it to Mr. an and he would fill it. I knew whether we had the literature ordered; sk was in the middle of the literature and when she asked me if I had it ad I went and looked and if I saw it there I told her I had, and if it wasn't I told her I hadn't. The literature was all around the room on shelves, he name of the literature near it so I could tell what it was. I suppose ermer instructed Mrs. Ray with respect to her duties; he was in charge never heard him give any orders to her; he did if anyone. But it was y the other way around. I was in charge of my stenographer, of whom three, one at a time. She had to write letters which I dictated, and also at one time I had the girls prepare what I called sample packets, that is envelopes filled with different samples of literature and when a request came in for samples I would send one of the sample packets out. Some of terature was in this room where I was located and the rest was in the ng room, right next door on the same floor. I usually knew what character erature was in Mr. Sherman's room, and in what quantities; I would ascerhat by looking to see. I would pass through there several times every day; s part of my duties to see what was in my own department there, and part 7 general interest to see what was there belonging to other departments. had in that shipping room that was not in my department only the organia leaflets, badges and buttons, membership cards, charters and what was n as public organization leaflets, constitutions and so forth, which partly in my department, but were mainly a matter of the organization work. e main the literature that was in Mr. Sherman's office that was not in was the organization leaflets, such as the National constitution of the list party, and these monthly leaflets they got out, which Mr. Germer took r his own supervision; I can't remember the names of them all. "Why Should Fight," ," "The Price We Pay" and "Protect your Rights" were some em; I knew them at the time, but I have forgotten most of them. They organization leaflets but the demand for them was so heavy that they begah erflow from Mr. Sherman's room into mine; I had some copies in my room. "The Price We Pay" was an organization leaflet and some of them got into my room. "Through the National Office Socialist Party," would indicate that it is an organization leaflet, but my impression is that it was June leaflet of the Socialist party. I did not publish it; had nothing to do this publication except in the American Socialist. Nothing else overflowed I remember. Mr. Germer would place the order for the printing or reting of leaflets. If a new leaflet were to be printed and I had anything to with it I would tell him there is a thing that needs to be printed and he d say all right. If it came from my department I would initiate the order, would have a talk with Mr. Germer and tell him which ought to be printed printed in a matter in which I was concerned. When a leaflet ran low ould tell him so and there were some orders pending and we had better e a reprint. In regard to literature in his department, the organization ature, his secretary would advise Mr. Germer. I talked with Mr. Germer at printing and reprinting "Have We Made Good," which I wrote, and I t remember of any others. I was employed there as director about six ks. I spoke with him about "The Price We Pay." which was reprinted -ral times; also " The Proclamation and War program," which I told him

1485

I didn't think much of. I had nothing to do with the reprinting or printing it, that was a leaflet ordered by the National convention. I had talks with Mr. Germer about printing or reprinting "The Proclamat and War Program." I remember one talk with him about "Why Y Should Fight," in which he told me that was not sold, it was not much god We reprinted it two or three times, but it had nothing like the popularity "The Price We Pay." I went to work there the last week in June; made no g of it. I do not remember having a talk with Mr. Reif about printing “W You Should Fight." I had many talks with him. I may have talked with hi about June 19th, but not about the printing of "Why You Should Fight." don't remember my first talk with him about that pamphlet. I imagine it wo about the time it was printed, if I had any talks at all. The first talk I h with him was when he came and inquired as to when I was going to pay a b I told him I had not contracted it. The pamphlet was printed in the Americ Socialist June 9th, and I think it was printed in pamphlet form the following week. I don't remember having any talk with Fritz Reif with me about printing | the pamphlet "Why You Should Fight" about June 19th. It was printed by the Chicago Labor Printing Co., I believe, located at 1616 North Halsted S and it was the company with which Mr. Reif was connected, and it publishes & Arbeiter Zeitung. I wrote that pamphlet on May 28th and 29th, 1917. I don't remember what the first order was for that, the number of them; they ha standing orders for all of those monthly organization leaflets; ther 1486 standing orders were filled regularly without any further order. I don

know who ordered them, except I know there were a good many locals throughout the country that had standing orders for leaflets. I do not remember of an order being placed for 300,000 copies of that pamphlet about June 19th The first I knew definitely such an order was placed was when I read it in th indictment. It was not in my department and I didn't see it when the order was made. I have never seen the order from the Socialist party, Nations office, to the Arbeiter Zeitung, Chicago, Illinois, which you now show me; th first I heard about it was when I read the indictment. I know nothing abou an order that was placed about August 21st for the printing of 50,000 copies of "Why You Should Fight; " I was in Oklahoma City that day; I knew that it was reprinted, I didn't hear about that order.

After I wrote the pamphlet entitled Why You should Fight" I gave the manuscript to Mr. Engdahl. I told him in his office that if he liked it to print it, and if he didn't, not to. He took the manuscript, but I didn't observe whether he looked over it; he didn't then. I next spoke to him about it when I saw it in The American Socialist, the edition of June 9th. I wrote the "Price we Pay" on April 28th, gave it to Mr. Engdahl in his office, and sa "here is an article to prove that we are going to get Socialism out of 1487 this world war, and he said he hoped we do. I told him to look it over and print it if he liked it, other wise not to.

I went down to Washington in connection with the Emergency Peace Fed eration and had a talk with Congressmen Stafford and Carey and Mason and Cooper, on the morning of April 3rd, and one of the conversations was of April 7th. I know that each of the three congressmen I talked to voted agains our going into this war, according to the Congressional Record. I saw Con gressman William E. Mason but no other congressman from Illinois. I went to see men who were in sympathy with me on the matter. The pamphlet "The Price We Pay" was printed as it appeared in the American Socialis I don't know of any important changes, except correction of a few typographic errors; I did not compare it very carefully; the changes were so little inportant they did not impress me. When I wrote that pamphlet I had in mini the medical report by Dr. Exner which is in evidence. I had read it. I looked no further for that kind of information, that was quite enough; I never saw any official reports issued by the Medical Department of the United States Army; had no occasion to look at the American Medical Magazine concerni the facts of which I wrote; was not interested in looking further. I ha enough, and didn't want to go beyond that. The official reports would have interested me, but I didn't know where to get hold of them. I do not know the facts as given out by the United States army reports concerning veneres disease in the army, except as given out in the newspapers. 1488

I saw the moving picture "The Battle of the Somme" at the Virgini Theater, near the National office on Madison Street. The picture w put out by the French government, and was being sent around with the ap proval of the United States government, so it stated on the screen. Those

the words as I remember them. I did not inquire into the fact as to that, vrote this immediately after and had no time; when I saw that on the een that satisfied me. I know that films of that kind were sent out with approval of the United Sates Government. I don't remember going to the vies in 1917.

tem No. 3 is in the same form in which I prepared and wrote it, as near I remember; there may be a difference, but it did not impress me at the e and does not recall itself to my recollection now. Looking at Government hibit 43, being the Saturday, May 5th American Socialist, at the article itled "The Price We Pay," that refreshes my memory and I see there is a ference in that and the pamphlet. I omitted from the pamphlet the words unning down German spies." I did not put in the pamphlet "The Attorney neral was running down German spies;" I thought it might be offensive. lon't remember striking it out; it may have been stricken out by somebody e, or I may have stricken it out. This is the first time I have noted that was stricken out, if I noted it before I have forgotten it; I wrote a good Ideal in those days. I don't know why it was stricken out. If it was 39 stricken out, it was to throw up in sharp relief this attitude of Attorney

General Gregory about not caring a damn whether the food producers bbed the people or not. The attorney general, as I understood it, was reonsible for the acts of the Department of Justice, and there was a number men at that time reported in the newspapers who were sent to prison for t standing up when the Star Spangled Banner was played; not to my pernal knokledge: I was never sent to prison myself, and I never met Mr. regory. I know there is no such law. I cannot give the names of men who ere sent to prison on that charge; I have a reference or clipping to it, but haven't got a clipping here.

I recollect in article 7 of the pamphlet "The Price We Pay" about whenever uth telling becomes safe and possible again that this war is to determine the estion whether the chambers of commerce of the allied nations or of the ntral empires have the superior right to exploit undeveloped countries. I ive read the President's Flag Day speech, but not what he had to say with spect to the causes of this war; I had read what he had to say with regard › the causes of our entry into the war. That speech meant something to me; think I understood the reasons set forth as far as anyone can understand Ir. Wilson. It is difficult sometimes for an honest man to understand him, nd I had difficulty. I read the speech while I was in Washington, about

the wrongs inflicted by Germany on this country, and the destruction 490 of American lives in ships on the high seas; I had a clipping on the

destruction of more than 220 men and women in that way, knew they ad been sunk at sea according to newspaper reports, and the President's recital f that meant a great deal to me as to the cause we entered the war; the 'resident said that was his reason. I read that reference in his speech. This war" means the European war; there was a war before we got into it. This pamphlet relates to the whole war question; there is another reference o our entry into the war: that relates to the European war. The pamphlet vas written after we got into the war. The President's pointing out to the Congress on April 2nd that more than 225 human beings had been destroyed nade a very deep impression on my mind when I was writing that pamphlet; thought they should have been kept at home and in that way we would have kept out of war, I was willing to try anything to keep out of war. I read of he declaration made by the American Embargo Conference with respect to keeping people at home, and that idea coincided very largely with mine.

In division 5 of that pamphlet my reference, as I have testified on direct, was to something that happened in Ireland between 1170 and 1918; and I certainly took into account in writing this pamphlet the fact that the German

army had marched into Belgium, had outraged women, murdered chil1491 dren. destroyed cities, and laid the country in waste; I compared that

with what England had been doing in Ireland for three centuries; my comparison was that England had done those things for seven centuries and Germany for three years; they are both atrocities. I knew that England is not one of the allies of the United States, but is associated with us in this war or we with her. I thought if we could show up England we could bring war to a conclusion more easily.

Taking the pamphlet as a whole, it is a pamphlet that is intended to cause men to enter the selective draft, but not to volunteer in the service of the United States Army. It has stated they could not escape it, and I think it

should have induced them to accept conscription. The pamphlet would as mate the enthusiasm of our people for Socialism, which is why I wrote i and for the war, so far as it is a just war and we could make it so. I garded it as susceptible of being made a just war, but it was not a just then according to the way the allies had stated their terms and the Unite States stated our terms. The war was unjust. The war was started by Ge many against Serbia. Please distinguish between the war, and our entry in the war. Our entry into the war was inevitable; I objected to the word " justifiable" in the Proclamation, because I thought it was "inevitable" that should go in there.

I wrote the article "Why You Should Fight" which was published in the American Socialist of June 9th. Comparing that with the leaflet of the 1492 same title, both of which you show me, they are not the same, there ar several changes. Mr. Germer caused most of them; he told me that be was changing it because it was too long. He told me why he changed it. Mr. Clabaugh told me that the pamphlet "The Price We Pay" was not illegal he said he didn't see anything illegal about it; I asked him what he thought about it.

In the pamphlet "Why You Should Fight" the words "This is why you should fight" was intended for the people who would read it. The sentences following would not encourage enlistment; it was not written with the intertion of encouraging volunteering in the United States Army. It was writte with the intention of encouraging response to the selective draft in the United States. Another statement therein contained that I regard as encouraging suc things begins, "Learn your lesson well is all we ask; continuing, that the world must be made safe for democracy; that lesson has been set for you by the ablest of schoolmasters; learn it, and one thing further, to tell a tyranny from a democracy when you have seen them; learn to distinguish democracy and when you go out for it bring home the goods. That answer is satisfactory to me; I don't know whether you like it or not. My intention in writing this pamphlet was that the effect of it would be to encourage enlistment on the part of our people in this war by mastering the science of arms and bringing democracy home to America; after they had taken it to Germany to bring it back 1493 here. I do not think the effect of this pamphlet would be encourage peo

ple to buy liberty bonds. I would like to explain that.

The Flag Day Speech appeared in the American Socialist of June 23rd, 1917. The speech appearing in the paper you show me is as I prepared it, as I re member it; there is no doubt about it in my mind. I started to write it the later part of the afternoon, at my desk in the first room on the Halsted Street side. and I started immediately after I got back from lunch about 1:30 P. M. I don't know that anyone was present in the room at the time. I wrote, about a couple of hours. My attention was on the manuscript and I didn't notice anyone coming into the room while I was writing. Mr. Germer may have passed through; I was accustomed to that, so I would not remember. I don't remember that Mr. Engdahl was there I don't think he was. When I had finished writing the article I showed it to Mr. Engdahl about five that same afternoon, who was in the next room, and I went in to see him at the conclusion of writing it. I said "here is something I have just written about the Flag Day Speech. You might use it if you like it." He said, "all right, I will look it over " if I remember. I talked to him from half to three-quarters of a minute, and then I think I went home. I saw no one else in Mr. Engdahl's office. The reason I wrote that was because I was not in accord with the President's speech, I was deeply dis

appointed, I looked for something better than that. I believed the state 1494 ment you have read from the President's speech of June 14th, on page

four, beginning "It is plain enough we were forced into the war," and about the insults and aggressions of the German Government leaving us no self-respecting choice but to take up arms in defense of our rights; and also that the military masters of Germany denied us the right to be neutral, filled our communities with spies and sought to corrupt our people in their own be half. Both sides did that.

I did not have the President's statement in mind when I made the speech in which I said that the reason for this stringent action is given as being fear lest German spies should send information to their government and that that same reason had been given for a nation wide campaign of intimidation and terrorism in which school girls and boys. clerks, students and stenographers have been seized and heralded to the world as heads of the Imperial German Government secret Service. I didn't say the United States heralded them, I said the news

s did, and as I before stated, the newspapers are largely professional liars. eved the statement in the President's Flay Day Speech when he said, reg to Germany, that they sought by violence to destroy our industries and tour commerce, and tried to incite Mexico to take up arms against us, and aw Japan into a hostile alliance with her. I knew nothing to the con; the President said so.

I was Chairman of the People's Council about that time and afterwards. The words you read from that speech of the President telling that Germany and her foreign office was attempting to promote peace made an impression upon my mind, and the President had been doing the thing for three years. The President did not warn me that peace was thing emanating from the German foreign office; I am no pro-German; he 1 that in the Flag Day Speech. I regarded it as a Flag Day Speech made e veterans at Arlington Cemetery at Washington, and it was a speech to he citizens of the United States. I knew at that time there was no peace merica, and I said so in "The Price We Pay" and also in the constructive program, in the words "There is no peace anywhere until Socialism comes stops the cause of war."

my reply to the Flag Day Speech, in saying that President Wilson told hy we are going to war, partly to wrest the Berlin to Bagdad Railroad Germany, I had reference to his words that the demands made by Ausupon Servia were a mere single step in a plan which compassed Europe Asia, from Berlin to Bagdad, and what he said in his speech next followconcluding with the words, "From Hamburg to the Persian Gulf the net read." This is all about the Berlin to Bagdad railroad. That is my unanding of the explanation as given by the president, that we went to war der to wrest the Berlin to Bagdad Railroad from Germany.

In my speech in the passage you quote I meant that it was an oversight of the little commonwealths, Bohemia, Hungary, Balkans, the Turks and the subtile people of the east that they did not request the ed States to set them free from Germany; they ought to have done so but forgot it. There is no reference in the President's speech to the German's npt to prevent our shipping munitions of war to their enemies; I think he ded reference to that very pointedly. By the words "The Germans atted to influence our opinion in their own behalf, hence our blood must be to destroy them," I meant that the president stated that the Germans set their views of the conflict in the American newspapers, and my point of was that so did the British, and I did not see any more reason why we ld go to war with Germany for that particular reason than with Great ain, for the reason that Great Britain bought more of our papers than many did. That is all I meant on that head.

told Mr. Engdahl I was going to write some stuff for the forthcoming ediof the Liberty edition, more than a week before it went to press; the Libedition went to press on June 30th. It was about the time I delivered to this Flag Day speech. I didn't remember that this morning, but do reiber it now, I have seen the notice of it in print. At the time I handed the ; Day speech to Mr. Engdahl I said, "here is something I have written; you can run it if you like, otherwise not." Then, perhaps the next morning he told me he was going to get out a July fourth edition, and I said that he ought to have something about the Declaration of Independence, he asked me will I write something, and I said yes, and I did, and here it I don't think anyone else was present other than Mr. Engdahl; I acted as or and got out one of the editions of the American Socialist when Mr. dahl was in Washington. The edition of the paper of July 24th shown me ains an article "Buy a liberty Bond ", but that paragraph was cut out ore it went; it was in the edition that I prepared but it did not go through mail. I wrote that article and I did not think it would have the effect of sing people to buy Liberty Bonds. I was opposed to Liberty Bonds; it did. go out, I found it was illegal and I chiseled it out of the paper before the er went through the mail, the moment I found there was any suspicion of because my desire was to obey the law. I had no suspicion before that e that it was illegal, if I had I would not have put it in. The items indied by you in the paper, I had nothing to do with the preparation with that t of the paper; they were sent in by Mr. Kruse; he read the proof on it and mply put it in the forms; I did not read it over, I had too much to do to d Kruse's stuff.