Victor L. Berger

LOUIS SHERMAN, a witness on behalf of the defendants, sworn and testified:

Direct Examination by Mr. Johnson.

name is Louis Sherman; live at 2139 Fowler Street; am a member of the S. L., and have been since 1915. Was present at its first convention at r Park Hall on May 6, 1917. First the rules of the convention were formuThen the various committees were elected and they adjourned to ct their business. I was. a member of the resolutions committee, which a side room at the Wicker Park Hall. Various resolutions were formuI have seen Government Exhibit 50, bearing my signature as one of ners. That resolution was never reported out of the committee. I don't what became of it.

as present at the second convention, on May 13th in Chicago. There was bble there over our refusal to present this resolution, and Arnold Schiller , and was seconded by Peter Dubcis, that we resist the draft, and all t, as well as the war; and it was discussed pro and con, and the climax eached when Mr. Kruse read a letter from some union against militarism ng we ought to register, but when the questionnaires came around that if had a ground to claim exemption they should do so. Schiller was most couldn't remember half of what Tom Levish said, and he introduced the whether or not the organization should go on record against the draft and the war. I cannot remember a resolution that the organization should oppose the introduction of military training into the schools. I heard nothing about stickers that I can remember at that time; I did a month later. I was present when Levish made a request for the nt of his expenditures for stickers, that was a meeting of the City Central ittee held on Division St. in the Northwest headquarters, and Williger, nber, said he had no business involving the organization in it, that the ization was not responsible for Levish's acts, and the Committee refused the bill.

ave heard Arnold Schiller express a feeling of hostility against William use, in June, 1917, when he called Kruse a yellow dog when I met Schiller e corner of Kedzie and Division Sts.

Cross-Examination by Mr. Fleming.

id not hear Mr. Kruse make a speech in the first session, but I did at the d session, in which he told the members that when the questionnaires out to claim exemption if they so wished. I don't know that the questions were not talked of until months afterwards, nor that they did not come ntil November, and there was no discussion until August, 1917. I won't am sure I heard the word questionnaire at that time, but he said you can exemption at the time. I signed the resolution in the side room at Wicker Park Hall; all the members of the committee were there at that time. I was present when that resolution was being typewritten, which was done by one of the girls and a member by the name of White; can't mber what girl. Fred White wrote the major portion of the resolution, s there and saw him; don't know where he lives. Saw him nine or ten hs ago and have not seen him since, that being the only time I have seen since the convention.

fore testifying about the typewriting of this resolution I talked to Mr. rs, and told him exactly what I have testified to. He didn't ask me who vrote the resolution; he asked me if Mr. Kruse had anything to do with ypewriting of it and I said no. He didn't ask me whose typewriter was e. It was Kruse's typewriter, and I knew it. I saw Kruse present during leliberations of our committee only once, and he was there about five or minutes at most; members came in and out, almost every member present e convention. The girl who wrote part of the resolution on the typewriter have been Markaret Wickert, possibly one of the other girls; I am not sure as Margaret Wickert. I am twenty-one; born in Russia; been in this counabout 12 years. My father is a citizen. I have been a citizen since 1916, a Yipsel since 1916, the first part pretty active. Have tried to attend the ings of my circle regularly; am treasurer of the circle, and have been for

Recross Examination by Mr. Fleming.

At the first session nothing was said about the proclamation and war gram to my knowledge. Mr. Kruse spoke that evening, at the first conventi

he spoke only as chairman, and he presided all day. Mr. Williger 1396 somebody may have relieved him for a while, but he was really th acting chairman for the day. I was mixed as to Rothenberg and Levis Levish was chairman at the Wicker Park Hall meeting in 1917. Basler v. elected organizer at that convention, city organized; and I was elected C.. Secretary for the ensuing year. I have got those conventions mixed, 191 and 1917. I was the first secretary in 1916 and Mrs. Kruse the second.

MRS. MILDRED HAESSLER, a witness on behalf of the defendants, swor and testified:

Direct Examination by Mr. Cochems.

My name is Mrs. Mildred Haessler; I am the wife of Carl Haessler. I know Victor Berger and have known him about 2 years. My home now is in Milwaukee. Have been living in Milwaukee and Lansing, Michigan, duriag the last year and a half. My own home is in Lansing. I was in Illinois as a teacher for a few months in the last year, at Aledo, Illinois; teaching in the high school and junior college.

I recall a conversation between Mr. Berger and my husband, Carl Haessler. in regard to war matters, late last spring, I think it was in the hallway of the Leader office, when Mr. Berger said "Better put on the uniform, boy You are making an individual protest. It will go hard with you, perhaps, an! it may not help the general cause." That is all of the conversation i 1397 remember. Mr. Haessler was present. Mr. Haessler was working there then as a foreign news writer.

I was called from my position at school by the prosecution here to come to Chicago to discuss my testimony in this case, I think on September 18th That was a Fair day so I lost no day in teaching. When I got here I was taken in to Mr. Fleming and Mr. Rooney, and there were two more. I was asked if I knew Mr. Berger, first having given my name and address and occupation; if my husband had known him, and how long, when he had seen him, if we had been to their house, what we had talked about at the house. if I had known of certain pamphlets, and once or twice about my husband I think Mr. Fleming asked me if Mr. Berger had persuaded my husband to take his stand as a conscientious objector, and I said no, because he was an objector to war before he had had any very close relations or any relations at all with Mr. Berger; that his convictions had come from England, when he was there as an Oxford student, and left after the war had begun in 1914 Then when I could not understand Mr. Fleming and Mr. Rooney both said "well, it won't hurt your husband any; it may be to his advantage." But I could not see it. Then Mr. Fleming said my husband was pro-German and disloyal and had been imprisoned because of that, and I asked him if he knew of my husband's trial in the court-martial and of his meeting the Board of Inquiry, and of Judge Julian W. Mack saying that he was not pro-German nor disloyal, but was sincere; and he did not seem to know. When 1398 I started teaching school my husband was in the stockade in Camp

Sheridan, Alabama, and was sent about two weeks later under sentence to Leavenworth, and he was there in the disciplinary barracks before he was brought here to-day, sentenced for twelve years. I lost my position as teacher about the first week in November; I was up here September 18th.

Cross-Examination by Mr. Fleming.

I was requested to come to the office of the United States attorney as a witness and my witness fees were paid from Aledo. I was in the office about an hour and a half. I was waiting a half hour of that time. When I came in I was told that you wanted to make clear that you were not seeking evidence against your husband, but that we were simply trying to find out the relations that existed between him and Mr. Berger, and that whatever evidence I gave was not to be used against my husband; or to prejudice his interests or claims. I also was told "We are not trying to hurt your husband. It might help your hus band." I was told both of those things. I was told that it might either help, or be of advantage to him. You told me you were trying to find out if he had been

y knowledge. On May 29, 1917, three gentlemen walked into the room and inded the stickers that I had. I had no stickers whatever, and I asked to step out of the room, which they did, and I went into the dining room and they asked me to show them a certain sticker that one of our members had gotten out on his own initiative which I had never seen. The first one that I saw was the one that one of these gentlemen, Mr. Elliott, red me. He asked me if I had any records or file cards, and I said I and opened the suit case and showed them to him. He looked through and asked if he could have them, and I said certainly, there is nothing here that I thought would do him any good. Those records have never been rned to me. The next day I was asked to appear at the Federal Building, Elliott had told me he had a warrant for me but that I looked pretty honest he would rely upon my honesty to come down to the Federal Building next ning at nine o'clock, which I did. Mr. Furbeshaw interviewed me. First he away a couple of revolvers, he thought I was going to commit suicide. Then isked me whteher I knew anything about these stickers, and I told him d not seen any, only the one that Mr. Elliott had shown me, and he started ing the conscript act and several others, and told me I might be held on ral charges, and said he was surprised, that he expected to see a wild eyed na Goldman, and that I ought to be married instead of mixed up in any of He asked me if I was mixed up in the mess outside of the Auditorium, and id I was not, that I was on the inside. He said that was an orderly meeting, and that I was not the kind of a Socialist that Stedman is. I said I was, and he said I was not, that Stedman and he got along fine. I never heard of the motto "The Hand That Holds a Musket Shall Never Hold e." No one ever said that to me. My sweetheart holds a musket, and he can 1 mine. He is in France. He is a member of the Y. P. S. L., and has been nearly five years, which is longer than I have been a member.

Cross-Examination by Mr. Fleming.

here were about four resolutions prepared at the first session of that contion. I do not remember exactly what the Russian resolution was about, re was not much stress put on it; very few of us are Russians; we are stly Americans. One was introduced by Tom Levish on anti-militarism in schools, military training in the high schools; the one that opposed the itary training in the high schools carried. I was present when the resoions committee was preparing this set of resolutions, but I was not on the nmittee. I don't remember who handed this resolution to me. I did not turn er any of the resolutions to any member who was in attendance at the second sion. I came in there late at the second session, about four o'clock. Comle Kruse called the first session to order. In the evening Mr. Engdahl was airman for our program. When I came in Mr. Rothenberg was presiding cer at the second session. I remember a telegram from Jack Robbins at the st session, in which he offered to finance the printing of a piece of literature eady written up, telling the young men about the cause of war, and inquiring whether the Y. P. S. L. will pass on it. That was put to the house; 95 don't remember wether it carried or was placed on file. I did not write up a minute of the meeting; the minutes were never written up. Mr. liott did not receive from me that night this memorandum you now show 2. Those minutes were never written up, because I took them down in longnd and was supposed to go down there the following Saturday to the National ice to write them up, and I never did write them up. I have no typewriter nd I am not a stenographer; I am just a two-fingered one. I was waiting for opportunity to go down to the National Office and write them up. I did ot give them to Mr. Elliott, or to anybody else who dallied about that time, or to Mr. Furbeshaw. All the records that I had Mr. Elliott took with him at night.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Johnson.

In the resolution opposing military training in the schools, there was thing about resistance at all. It was the idea of its not coming into the -hool.

Recross Examination by Mr. Fleming.

At the first session nothing was said about the proclamation and war r gram to my knowledge. Mr. Kruse spoke that evening, at the first convent he spoke only as chairman, and he presided all day. Mr. Williger 1396 somebody may have relieved him for a while, but he was really

acting chairman for the day. I was mixed as to Rothenberg and Levis Levish was chairman at the Wicker Park Hall meeting in 1917. Basler v. elected organizer at that convention, city organized; and I was elected C Secretary for the ensuing year. I have got those conventions mixed, 12. and 1917. I was the first secretary in 1916 and Mrs. Kruse the second. MRS. MILDRED HAESSLER, a witness on behalf of the defendants, swer and testified:

Direct Examination by Mr. Cochems.

My name is Mrs. Mildred Haessler; I am the wife of Carl Haessler. I know Victor Berger and have known him about 2 years. My home now is in Milwaukee. Have been living in Milwaukee and Lansing, Michigan, durist the last year and a half. My own home is in Lansing. I was in Illinois as s teacher for a few months in the last year, at Aledo, Illinois; teaching in the high school and junior college.

I recall a conversation between Mr. Berger and my husband, Carl Haessler in regard to war matters, late last spring, I think it was in the hallway of the Leader office, when Mr. Berger said "Better put on the uniform, by You are making an individual protest. It will go hard with you, perhaps, an it may not help the general cause." That is all of the conversation! 1397 remember. Mr. Haessler was present. Mr. Haessler was working there then as a foreign news writer.

I was called from my position at school by the prosecution here to come to Chicago to discuss my testimony in this case, I think on September 18th That was a Fair day so I lost no day in teaching. When I got here I was taken in to Mr. Fleming and Mr. Rooney, and there were two more. I was asked if I knew Mr. Berger, first having given my name and address and occupation; if my husband had known him, and how long, when he had seen him, if we had been to their house, what we had talked about at the house if I had known of certain pamphlets, and once or twice about my husband I think Mr. Fleming asked me if Mr. Berger had persuaded my husband te take his stand as a conscientious objector, and I said no, because he was an objector to war before he had had any very close relations or any relations at all with Mr. Berger; that his convictions had come from England, whe he was there as an Oxford student, and left after the war had begun in 1914 Then when I could not understand Mr. Fleming and Mr. Rooney both said "well, it won't hurt your husband any; it may be to his advantage." B I could not see it. Then Mr. Fleming said my husband was pro-German and disloyal and had been imprisoned because of that, and I asked him if he knew of my husband's trial in the court-martial and of his meeting the Board of Inquiry, and of Judge Julian W. Mack saying that he was not pro-Germa

nor disloyal, but was sincere; and he did not seem to know. When 1398 I started teaching school my husband was in the stockade in Camp

Cross-Examination by Mr. Fleming.

suaded to do that, or whether he was acting honestly and conscientiously in t belief; the substance of what Mr. Rooney told me at the time was that you were trying to find out whether my husband was an innocent victim. My husband is thirty and a half; he was in the draft. I would not say that a year before he was hostile to the draft law. He said in 1917 "I not conscientiously and patriotically serve in this war." He said that to the ft board in Illinois, six or seven months before the conversation with Mr. ger related on my direct examination. I remember telling Mr. Rooney that husband and I visited Mr. Bergers' home during the winter of 1917. We ited him two or three times that winter; not at all the preceding portion of the ir. I called about once a week at the office of the Leader. My husband was a eign news writer, had been since June or July, 1917, employed regularly. Mr. essler wrote on the questionnaire “I cannot conscientiously or patriotically 've in this war." Mr. Haessler was found physically fit and classified in Class and it was at that time that he had the conversation with Mr. Berger. My sband said that it was his own individual stand because of his own principles d he did not try or intend to dictate to anyone else' conscience; he told Mr. rger and me that many times. The conversation at Brisbane Hall was someing like that, not those exact words, but that was the thought. And Mr. Berger id him he had better go ahead and put on a uniform, rather than get into that ouble. I have been married a year and a day.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Cochems.

I have never learned that these gentlemen were calling me to the District ttorney's office to help my husband if he was the innocent victim of somebody se. I taught school before I was married. At none of the visits I made did I er hear Mr. Berger advise my husband to resist any law in regard to the ilitary establishment of this country.

Recross Examination by Mr. Fleming.

I was told right at the beginning of the conversation that you were trying to nd out how far my husband had acted independently, or how far he had been uggested by others. I was told you were going to get those men who were reponsible for the delinquence of other people, and that you had the evidence; you wanted to get the evidence against those men, whom you had enough evidence o convict as it was. You did not say "delinquencies of other men," but for being raitors, as I supposed.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Cochems.

He told me they had enough evidence then to get these other men. I wondered what he meant; I do not think I understand now, quite.

Recross Examination by Mr. Fleming.

I do not remember being told that the government had evidence of the 1401 desertion of a large number of men and was trying to fix the responsibility for it in regard to others; I got the idea that you were trying to fix the responsibility on the men who were responsible for the desertion or disloyalty of young men in the army and navy service, but you said you had it. You and Mr. Rooney were present, I do not know about Mr. Plummer and Mr. Milroy. CARL HAESSLER, a witness on behalf of the defendants, sworn and testified:

Direct Examination by Mr. Cochens.

My name is Carl Haessler, born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin; thirty years old in August, 1918; married November 18, 1917. My early life was spent in Milwaukee attending District and High School; then graduated from the University of Wisconsin, then attended the University of Oxford, England, and then got a Doctor's degree at the University of Illinois. I won a scholarship from Wisconsin to Oxford, and was at Oxford from 1911 to 1914, leaving England on the 15th of August, 1914, and returned to the University of Illinois, where I had a position as teacher of philosophy, and stayed there for the three following years, until June, 1917. Then I went to Milwaukee and worked on the Milwaukee Leader, first as mail circulation manager; the second part of my term there as editorial writer and exchange editor; I handled foreign news.

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Victor L. Berger: Hearings Before the Special Committee Appointed Under the ...