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LOUIS SHERMAN, a witness on behalf of the defendants, sworn and

testitied:

Direct Examination by Mr. Johnson.

v name is Louis Sherman; live at 2139 Fowler Street; am a member of the · S. L., and have been since 1915. Was present at its first convention at cer Park Hall on May 6, 1917. First the rules of the convention were formu1. Then the various committees were elected and they adjourned to sact their business. I was a member of the resolutions committee, which in a side room at the Wicker Park Hall. Various resolutions were formu1. I have seen Government Exhibit 50, bearing my signature as one of signers. That resolution was never reported out of the committee. I don't V what became of it. was present at the second convention, on May 13th in Chicago. There was uabble there over our refusal to present this resolution, and Arnold Schiller ed, and was seconded by Peter Dubcis, that we resist the draft, and all hat, as well as the war; and it was discussed pro and con, and the climax

reached when Mr. Kruse read a letter from some union against militarism sing we ought to register, but when the questionnaires came around that if · had a ground to claim exemption they should do so. Schiller was most | I couldn't remember half of what Tom Levish said, and he introduced the ion whether or not the organization should go on record against the draft

and the war. I cannot remember a resolution that the organization 3 should oppose the introduction of military training into the schools. I

heard nothing about stickers that I can remember at that time; I did ut a month later. I was present when Levish made a request for the ment of his expenditures for stickers, that was a meeting of the City Central omittee held on Division St. in the Northwest headquarters, and Williger, ienaber, said he had no business involving the organization in it, that the anization was not responsible for Levish's acts, and the Committee refused pay the bill.

have heard Arnold Schiller express a feeling of hostility against William Kruse, in June, 1917, when he called Kruse a yellow dog when I met Schiller the corner of Kedzie and Division Sts.

Cross-Examination by Mr. Fleming.

did not hear Mr. Kruse make a speech in the first session, but I did at the ond session, in which he told the members that when the questionnaires ne out to claim exemption if they so wished. I don't know that the questionres were not talked of until nionths afterwards, nor that they did not come : until November, and there was no discussion until August, 1917. I won't · I am sure I heard the word questionnaire at that time, but he said you can im exemption at the time. I signed the resolution in the side room at

Wicker Park Hall; all the members of the committee were there at that 39 time. I was present when that resolution was being typewritten, which

was done by one of the girls and a meniber by the name of white; can't nember what girl. Fred White wrote the major portion of the resolution, was there and saw him; don't know where he lives. Saw him nine or ten nths ago and have not seen him since, that being the only time I have seen n since the convention. Before testifying about the typewriting of this resolution I talked to Mr. gers, and told him exactly what I have testified to. He didn't ask me who pewrote the resolution; he asked me if Mr. Kruse had anything to do with e typewriting of it and I said no. He didn't ask me whose typewriter was ere. It was Kruse's typewriter, and I knew it. I saw Kruse present during e deliberations of our committee only once, and he was there about five or a minutes at most; members came in and out, almost every member present

the convention. The girl who wrote part of the resolution on the typewriter ay have been Markaret Wickert, possibly one of the other girls; I am not sure was Margaret Wickert. I am twenty-one; born in Russia ; been in this couny about 12 years. My father is a citizen. I have been a citizen since 1916, id a Yipsel since 1916, the first part pretty active. Have tried to attend the eetings of my circle regularly; am treasurer of the circle, and have been for Recross Examination by Mr. Fleming.

At the first session nothing was said about the proclamation and warm gram to my knowledge. Mr. Kruse spoke that evening, at the first conventie

he spoke only as chairman, and he presided all day, Mr. Williger 1396 somebody may have relieved him for a while, but he was really to

acting chairman for the day. I was mixed as to Rothenberg and Levist Levish was chairman at the Wicker Park Hall meeting in 1917. Basler 2 elected organizer at that convention, city organized ; and I was elected (ly Secretary for the ensuing year. I have got those conventions mixed, 1914 and 1917. I was the first secretary in 1916 and Mrs. Kruse the second.

MRS. MILDRED HAESSLER, a witness on behalf of the defendants, swort and testified:

Direct Examination by Mr. Cochems. My name is Mrs. Mildred Haessler; I am the wife of Carl Haessler. I know Victor Berger and have known him about 21 years. My home now is in Milwaukee. Have been living in Milwaukee and Lansing, Michigan, during the last year and a half. My own home is in Lansing. I was in Illinois as a teacher for a few months in the last year, at Aledo, Illinois; teaching in the high school and junior college.

I recall a conversation between Mr. Berger and my husband, Carl Haessler, in regard to war matters, late last spring, I think it was in the hallway of the Leader office, when Mr. Berger said " Better put on the uniform, bor. You are making an individual protest. It will go hard with you, perhaps, and

it may not help the general cause." That is all of the conversation I 1397 remember. Mr. Haessler was present. Mr. Haessler was working

there then as a foreign news writer. I was called from my position at school by the prosecution here to coure to Chicago to discuss my testimony in this case, I think on September 15th That was a Fair day so I lost no day in teaching. When I got here I was taken in to Mr. Fleming and Mr. Rooney, and there were two more. I was asked if I knew Mr. Berger, first having given my name and address and occupation; if my husband had known him, and how long, when he had seei him, if we had been to their house, what we had talked about at the house, if I had known of certain pamphlets, and once or twice about my husband I think Mr. Fleming asked me if Mr. Berger had persuaded my husband to take his stand as a conscientious objector, and I said no, because he was an objector to war before he had had any very close relations or any relations at all with Mr. Berger; that his convictions had come from England, when he was there as an Oxford student, and left after the war had begun in 1914 Then when I could not understand Mr. Fleming and Mr. Rooney both said “ well, it won't hurt your husband any; it may be to his advantage." But I could not see it. Then Mr. Fleming said my husband was pro-German and disloyal and had been imprisoned because of that, and I asked him if be knew of my husband's trial in the court-martial and of his meeting the Board of Inquiry, and of Judge Julian W. Mack saying that he was not pro-German

nor disloyal, but was sincere; and he did not seem to know. When 1398 I started teaching school my husband was in the stockade in Camp

Sheridan, Alabama, and was sent about two weeks later under sentence to Leavenworth, and he was there in the disciplinary barracks before he was brought here to-day, sentenced for twelve years. I lost my position as teacher about the first week in November ; I was up here September 18th.

Cross-Examination by Mr. Fleming. I was requested to come to the office of the United States attorney as a witness and my witness fees were paid from Aledo. I was in the office about an hour and a half. I was waiting a half hour of that time. When I came in I was told that you wanted to make clear that you were not seeking evidence against your husband, but that we were simply trying to find out the relations that existed between him and Mr. Berger, and that whatever evidence I gave was not to be used against my husband; or to prejudice his interests or claims. I also was told “ We are not trying to hurt your husband. It might help your husband.” I was told both of those things. I was told that it might either help, or be of advantage to him. You told me you were trying to find out if he had been

- knowledge. On May 29, 1917, three gentlemen walked into the room and nded the stickers that I had. I had no stickers whatever, and I asked to step out of the room, which they did, and I went into the dining room and they asked me to show them a certain sticker that one of our members had gotten out on his own initiative which I had never seen. The

first one that I saw was the one that one of these gentlemen, Mr. Elliott, ed me. He asked me if I had any records or file cards, and I said I and opened the suit case and showed them to him. He looked through

and asked if he could have them, and I said certainly, there is nothing ere that I thought would do him any good. Those records have never been ned to me. The next day I was asked to appear at the Federal Building, Elliott had told me he had a warrant for me but that I looked pretty honest he would rely upon my honesty to come down to the Federal Building next ing at nine o'clock, which I did. Mr. Furbeshaw interviewed me. First he way a couple of revolvers, he thought I was going to commit suicide. Then sked me whteher I knew anything about these stickers, and I told him I not seen any, only the one that Mr. Elliott had shown me, and he started ing the conscript act and several others, and told me I might be held on ral charges, and said he was surprised, that he expected to see a wild eyed na Goldman, and that I ought to be married instead of mixed up in any of

He asked me if I was mixed up in the mess outside of the Auditorium, and d I was not, that I was on the inside. He said that was an orderly meeting,

and that I was not the kind of a Socialist that Stedman is. I said I was, and he said I was not, that Stedman and he got along fine. I never

heard of the motto “ The Hand That Holds a Musket Shall Never Hold e." No one ever said that to me. My sweetheart holds a musket, and he can

mine. He is in France. He is a member of the Y. P. S. L., and has been nearly five years, which is longer than I have been a member.

Cross-Eramination by Mr. Fleming.

here were about four resolutions prepared at the first session of that contion. I do not remember exactly what the Russian resolution was about, re was not much stress put on it; very few of us are Russians; we are tly Americans. One was introduced by Tom Levish on anti-militarism in

schools, military training in the high schools; the one that opposed the itary training in the high schools carried. I was present when the resoons committee was preparing this set of resolutions, but I was not on the mittee. I don't remember who handed this resolution to me. I did not turn r any of the resolutions to any member who was in attendance at the second sion. I came in there late at the second session, about four o'clock. Come Kruse called the first session to order. In the evening Mr. Engdahl was irman for our program. When I came in Mr. Rothenberg was presiding cer at the second session. I remember a telegram from Jack Robbins at the t session, in which he offered to finance the printing of a piece of literature eady written up, telling the young men about the cause of war, and inquiring

whether the Y. P. S. L. will pass on it. That was put to the house; 5 don't remember wether it carried or was placed on file. I did not write

up a minute of the meeting; the minutes were never written up. Mr. iott did not receive from me that night this memorandum you now show

Those minutes were never written up, because I took them down in longnd and was supposed to go down there the following Saturday to the National ice to write them up, and I never did write them up. I have no typewriter

I am not a stenographer; I am just a two-fingered one. I was waiting for opportunity to go down to the National Office and write them up. I did t give them to Mr. Elliott, or to anybody else who dallied about that time, T to Mr. Furbeshaw. All the records that I had Mr. Elliott took with him at night.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Johnson.

In the resolution opposing military training in the schools, there was othing about resistance at all. It was the idea of its not coming into the hool.

Recross Examination by Mr. Fleming.

At the first session nothing was said about the proclamation and war pa gram to my knowledge. Mr. Kruse spoke that evening, at the first conventis

he spoke only as chairman, and he presided all day. Mr. Williger 1396 somebody may have relieved him for a while, but he was really th

acting chairman for the day. I was mixed as to Rothenberg and Levish Levish was chairman at the Wicker Park Hall meeting in 1917. Basler elected organizer at that convention, city organized; and I was elected (t Secretary for the ensuing year. I have got those conventions mixed, 19. and 1917. I was the first secretary in 1916 and Mrs. Kruse the second. MRS. MILDRED HAESSLER, a witness on behalf of the defendants, swon and testified:

Direct Examination by Mr. Cochems. My name is Mrs. Mildred Haessler; I am the wife of Carl Haessler. ] know Victor Berger and have known him about 21 years. My home now is in Milwaukee. Have been living in Milwaukee and Lansing, Michigan, durin. the last year and a half. My own home is in Lansing. I was in Illinois as a teacher for a few months in the last year, at Aledo, Illinois; teaching in the high school and junior college.

I recall a conversation between Mr. Berger and my husband, Carl Haessler, in regard to war matters, late last spring, I think it was in the hallway of the Leader office, when Mr. Berger said " Better put on the uniform, boy. You are making an individual protest. It will go hard with you, perhaps, ani

it may not help the general cause." That is all of the conversation I 1397 remember. Mr. Haessler was present. Mr. Haessler was working

there then as a foreign news writer. I was called from my position at school by the prosecution here to Monte to Chicago to discuss my testimony in this case, I think on September 18th That was a Fair day so I lost no day in teaching. When I got here I was taken in to Mr. Fleming and Mr. Rooney, and there were two more. I was asked if I knew Mr. Berger, first having given my name and address ard occupation; if my husband had known him, and how long, when he had seri him, if we had been to their house, what we had talked about at the house. if I had known of certain pamphlets, and once or twice about my husband! I think Mr. Fleming asked me if Mr. Berger had persuaded my husband to take his stand as a conscientious objector, and I said no, because he was an objector to war before he had had any very close relations or any relations at all with Mr. Berger; that his convictions had come from England, when he was there as an Oxford student, and left after the war had begun in 1914 Then when I could not understand Mr. Fleming and Mr. Rooney both said “ well, it won't hurt your husband any; it may be to his advantage." But I could not see it. Then Mr. Fleming said my husband was pro-German and disloyal and had been imprisoned because of that, and I asked him if he knew of my husband's trial in the court-martial and of his meeting the Board of Inquiry, and of Judge Julian W. Mack saying that he was not pro-Germs]

nor disloyal, but was sincere; and he did not seem to know. Wbec 1398 I started teaching school my husband was in the stockade in Camp

Sheridan, Alabama, and was sent about two weeks later under sentence to Leavenworth, and he was there in the disciplinary barracks before he was brought here to-day, sentenced for twelve years. I lost my position as teacher about the first week in November; I was up here September 18th.

Cross-Examination by Mr. Fleming. I was requested to come to the office of the United States attorney as a witness and my witness fees were paid from Aledo. I was in the office about an hour and a half. I was waiting a half hour of that time. When I came in I was told that you wanted to make clear that you were not seeking evidence against your husband, but that we were simply trying to find out the relations that existed between him and Mr. Berger, and that whatever evidence I gave was not to be used against my husband; or to prejudice his interests or claims. I also was told “We are not trying to hurt your husband. It might help your hus band.” I was told both of those things. I was told that it might either help, or be of advantage to him. You told me you were trying to find out if he had been

suaded to do that, or whether he was acting honestly and conscientiously in : belief; the substance of what Mr. Rooney told me at the time was that you were trying to find out whether my husband was an innocent victim.

My husband is thirty and a half; he was in the draft. I would not say that a year before he was hostile to the draft law. He said in 1917 I not conscientiously and patriotically serve in this war.” He said that to the ft board in Illinois, six or seven months before the conversation with Mr. ger related on my direct examination. I remember telling Mr. Rooney that

husband and I visited Mr. Bergers' home during the winter of 1917. We ted him two or three times that winter; not at all the preceding portion of the r. I called about once a week at the office of the Leader. My husband was a eign news writer, had been since June or July, 1917, employed regularly. Mr. essler wrote on the questionnaire " I cannot conscientiously or patriotically ve in this war.” Mr. Haessler was found physically fit and classified in Class ind it was at that time that he had the conversation with Mr. Berger. My sband said that it was his own individual stand because of his own principles 1 he did not try or intend to dictate to anyone else' conscience; he told Mr. rger and me that many times. The conversation at Brisbane Hall was someng like that, not those exact words, but that was the thought. And Mr. Berger d him he had better go ahead and put on a uniform, rather than get into that ruble. I have been married a year and a day. 00

Redirect Examination by Mr. Cochems. I have never learned that these gentlemen were calling me to the District torney's office to help my husband if he was the innocent victim of somebody se. I taught school before I was married. At none of the visits I made did i er hear Mr. Berger advise my husband to resist any law in regard to the ilitary establishment of this country.

Recross Examination by Mr. Fleming. I was told right at the beginning of the conversation that you were trying to nd out how far my husband had acted independently, or how far he had been iggested by others. I was told you were going to get those men who were rebonsible for the delinquence of other people, and that you had the evidence; you anted to get the evidence against those men, whom you had enough evidence

convict as it was. You did not say “ delinquencies of other men,” but for being raitors, as I supposed.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Cochems. He told me they had enough evidence then to get these other men. I wondered vhat he meant; I do not think I understand now, quite.

Recross Examination by Mr. Fleming. I do not remeniber being told that the government had evidence of the 401 desertion of a large number of men and was trying to fix the responsibility

for it in regard to others; I got the idea that you were trying to fix the esponsibility on the men who were responsible for the desertion or disloyalty of young men in the army and navy service, but you said you had it. You and Mr. Rooney were present, I do not know about Mr. Plummer and Mr. Milroy.

CARL HAESSLER, a witness on behalf of the defendants, sworn and testified:

Direct Examination by Mr. Cochens. My name is Carl Haessler, born in Milwaukee, Wisconsin; thirty years old in August, 1918; married November 18, 1917. My early life was spent in Milwaukee attending District and High School; then graduated from the University of Wisconsin, then attended the University of Oxford, England, and then got a Doctor's degree at the University of Illinois. I won a scholarship from Wisconsin to Oxford, and was at Oxford from 1911 to 1914, leaving England on the 15th of August, 1914, and returned to the University of Illinois, where I had a position as teacher of philosophy, and stayed there for the three following years, until June, 1917. Then I went to Milwaukee and worked on the Milwaukee Leader, first as mail circulation manager; the second part of my term there as editorial writer and exchange editor ; I handled foreign news.

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