own in Texas published by a man by the name of Hickey. The American st, the Texas Rebel, The Four Lights and The Call were all present. nt to Judge Herron and I told them that I had been for the war before into it, from the time Germany invaded Belgium, and that I disagreed he opinions of practically all that were interested in these papers, on ht and duty in going into the war but that I believed in a broad freedom ech and of press, and that I thought that a fair showing, on both sides, ld win with the country, and I thought we could do it easier and better e a broad freedom of the press. I said if there were specific things that not be published they ought to be indicated and the newspapers be ed, but I thought the papers themselves ought not to be suppressed, exmatters of great emergency.

Herron said that his department had no responsibility in the matter; ad brought no indictments under the statute and that the Postmaster General was acting in his own behalf, or, as he understood things to be, without consultation with him and that it was not in his department and he didn't see what they could do with reference to the Postmaster al, but, as to whether these questions should be denied the use of the at the Attorney General's Office-that the opinion of the Attorney Genoffice was pretty well shown by the fact that they had not brought any nents. There were documents and leaflets presented at that time. I hat if they were right their opinions ought to prevail, if they were . as I fully believed they were wrong, that I thought we could meet in the open discussion and win.

ent to see the Postmaster General with the rest of the committee by atment. We went into a general discussion of the subject I told him f, in the opinion of the Postmaster General there were articles in these s that should not be published, I thought it was only fair to the pubs of the papers that they should indicate what those were or what they permitted and what they did not permit. He didn't point out just what jected to. He said, "why don't they discuss Socialism alone, say nothing the war?" I told him they were all interested in the war and it would etty hard for them not to make a reference to the war, and that if the war was not to be discussed except in certain ways, or certain things were not to be said they ought to indicate what could be said and what could not. After an hour or so he referred us to somebody else. He ot point out what special things were objected to or indicate any line they would be safe to follow. I think Mr. Herron said the department not give an opinion on these questions unless it was asked for, but he they didn't act on them themselves. He said they were not in agreement master General and Attorney General), as to how far they would permit apers to go. We said there ought to be uniform position; that it ought taken up in the Cabinet meetings, so they could have the opinion of all em and that the departments of government ought to agree to lay down icy for those people who did not believe the United States should be in var, or who opposed its method, or saw fit to criticise it. I went back ashington after that and interviewed Senators in regard to this matter. Engdahl and Mr. Stedman were with me. I saw the Postmaster General the President. I urged to the Postmaster General to lay down a line of I told him I thought he was clamping the lid on too tight. instead of helping to win the war it was antagonizing a great many people who otherwise might be with us. He replied the only direction he could give was that they should not mention the war, go on with their Socialism. We went to another department, consulted ery of Missouri. He listened to us and took it under advisement as he 1 it and we went out.

7.

** * *

* ** *

discussed the matter with the President. It was largely a question of osophy as to the limits of freedom of speech and press. He said there no way of defining exactly the line.

* * *
* *

That it was an indefinite * That he wanted to do

that could not be drawn with certainty. s liberally and fairly as he could, and still felt that it ought to be done. s paid my expenses-I was not paid as an attorney.

Cross-Examination by Mr. Fleming.

was at 803 West Madison street about July 6th, 1917. The current issue he American Socialist had been held up. I remember the advertisement he pamphlet was mentioned as one of the reasons, "The Price We Pay'

I think I read the advertisement of the pamphlet-I think I read **The P We Pay".

At the meeting before Judge Herron the general policy of the paper reference to the issues going through the mail was discussed more than thing else. There were representatives of "New York Call.” “The Four Ligh "The Rebel," "The Masses".

I think the circulation of the pamphlet entitled "Proclamation and Program" would have the effect of encouraging enlistment in the army serv of the United States with some, and with some it would have the 1229 posite tendency. I mean that people act from all kinds of psycholo Some people are scared by horror, and others say "Well if that is case, we have got to go in and help." Those persons who believe that in modern history there has been no war more unjustifiable than the war which we are about to engage, etc. would not inspire confidence in the c of the United States by reading that pamphlet. I think with some it me have the tendency to stimulate recruiting. I think the average person would think much about Government's Exhibit entitled "Realities of War"; tha: they would think a great deal of it was absurd; with some it would have effect of helping the recruiting service and others it would not. I think average man would think that most of those pictures are made for Socialist rather than war, and would not be much influenced. I think the pictures the horrors would make many people angry, the same as they did in England and they would enlist; and I think others would be scared that they mig get hurt, and would not enlist-so far as it affected them.

Referring to Government's Exhibit entitled "War and Women" I think would hurt the Government in its operations in connection with raising army and would aid the Government, it would do both. Some would 1230 disgusted at it and join, and some would not.

66

(Thereupon the witness was referred to an advertisement carria in the issues of the American Socialist entitled Buy a Liberty Bond ", e The Witness: I do not think that is a sentiment calculated to encourage the sale of Liberty Bonds. I do not recall the article entitled "Wake upth Amer ica" in the American Socialist, issue of June 23rd.

I utterly disagreed with the St. Louis platform. My trip had to do e in so far as it affected this case, the circulation of papers. I would not p tend to advise Engdahl or anybody else that the dissemination of “Why Y Should Fight" and "the Price We Pay" was not in violation of crimin statutes, I was too uncertain.

Mr. Fleming: Q You believe there ought to be a limitation imposed up the right of free speech and writings during war time, do you not?

(Objection by defendants as incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial; obj tion overruled; exception.)

A. Yes sir.

The Witness: Well, I said they ought to do anything necessary to win th war when it is on, pretty nearly.

1231

Redirect Examination by Mr. Stedman.

Referring to the suggestion that bonds should not be subscribed for I not thought about it but I can see how the Socialist theory might be run the war without the necessity of a bond issue. Their suggestion w to pay for it as it went along. It might well be connected with that I did not mean to say that it (the Espionage Act) was not discussed befor Judge Herron. I said that you could not tell exactly what it meant, or th difference between direct influence or indirect influence; the direct effect advising a specific man not to enlist or the publishing of pamphlets or liter ture that nfight be calculated to prevent somebody from enlisting, and I rem ber distinctly his saying that the attitude of the law department so far co be inferred from the fact that there had been no prosecution at that time have practiced law 41 years.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Fleming.

The Espionage Act had been on the books for less than one month at th time of our meeting before Judge Herron.

IAM BROSS LLOYD, called as a witness on behalf of the defendants. ing been first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Stedman.

eside in Illinois; in business as a lawyer and trustee. I am acquainted with Arnold Schiller.

I saw him about October 20th. He came up to my office. He talked to Mr. Howe who was in my office, and Howe asked him what he was doing up and he said the Government sent him up here because he was going to in court in the Berger trial. Mr. Howe asked him what he was going stify about and he said "Oh, Kruse left several of my letters lying d his office, like a God damn fool, and the Government got hold of them ", e said, I've got to testify, they've got it on me in several different direcand I've got to testify". "A man has got to protect himself, look out mself." He also talked about his various insubordination, about being t without leave. He also talked about the war, very much liked the St.

Proclamation.

Cross-Examination by Mr. Fleming.

as a Socialist candidate at that time. Schiller came up to call on L. C. -meyer a stenographer in my office.

Direct Examination (Continued) by Mr. Stedman.

(Schiller) said that he had to protect himself, look out for himself and his own hide.

Cross-Examination (Continued) by Mr. Fleming.

we told me after this conversation that he (Schiller) had been before the Grand Jury. Schiller told me at that meeting in October, 1918, that he had orders to go back on a certain train and that he was ignoring those orders.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Stedman.

y Father Henry D. Lloyd born in New York City, and Aaron Lloyd was tenant Governor of Illinois, I have no German ancestors. Myself and ers own large interests in the Chicago Tribune. I am interested in this ny other Socialist would be interested in this case, and as a citizen in ng the defense of men who represented the Socialist Party and in vindicathe right of the Socialist Party to conduct its political agitations.

Recross Examination by Mr. Fleming.

have done quite a little speech making especially since April 6th, 1917, the of our entrance into the war.

. Fleming: Q You have been unsparing in your denunciation of our try?

bjection by defendants as incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial; obon overruled; exception.)

e Witness: A Yes, sir. I have criticised the Government's war policy denounced the war as the capitalist war and accept that provision of the Louis Platform which calls for the repudiation of war debts.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Stedman.

I am a capitalist.

I resigned as director in The Tribune because I could have no influence on The Tribune policy and I disagreed with it absolutely.

DAVID MENDELSOHN, called as a witness on behalf of the defendants, have 12 been first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Johnson.

I am thirty-one years of age. I ame employed by Mr. Culhane, Chicag I know Arnold Schiller. I talked with him with reference to a secret in the latter part of July or 1st of August, 1917 in the County Office. Schi asked me if I wanted to go to his Uncle's farm in Michigan to evade the draa that it was a nice secluded place, no one could find you there, that you ev stand within 20 feet of the house and be out of danger, that he had a suppo of provisions there to last six months, that he could renew that supply at time he wanted to. On November the 10th, 1917, at the 27th Ward branch the Socialist Party I met Schiller there in uniform. I asked him when was going back. He replied "When I get good and ready."

I told him, "You are foolish," and he (Schiller) said, “Well, I don't a I have been in the guard house before, I will take my chances."

1235

I was a member of an organization known as the Council of Socials Conscripts consisting of members of draft age organized solely to ga legal aid to Socialists of draft age and other persons, making out their claims for exemption, and also trying to get a ruling on the draft law, with reference to that provision in the Act relating to religious sects or organizations bang exempt from compulsory military service. We thought we would come under that heading. Kruse was present.

There was a committee appointed to draw up a set of resolutions to send te the President of the United States asking him for a favorable ruling on that provision with reference to conscientious objectors to war, that is, whether: Socialist was entitled to the benefit of that section. Affidavits for claims for exemption were prepared for members of the Socialist Party to claim exempti as conscientious objectors. I filed a claim for exemption on the grounds dependency and as a conscientious objector, being opposed to war in principle and as a protest.

I have two brothers who are now in France in the military service.

Cross-Examination by Mr. Fleming.

I do not know of any members of the League of Socialist conscripts who re fused to serve.

1236

Our headquarters was at the National Office 803 W. Madison St. ur they kicked us out. I have never spoken to Kruse and am not per sonally acquainted with him. He was present at two meetings of the Leag of Socialist Conscripts.

I was given Class 4 by Local Board. One of my brothers enlisted a week before he was drafted, the other one tried to enlist, was rejected and afterwards recalled and sent overseas in six weeks, by draft.

(Thereupon the witness was referred to letter sent out by Conscript Leagu which document was identified by the witness.)

(Thereupon there was offered and received in evidence Government's Ev hibits 160 and 161.)

(Thereupon the witness was referred to a certain document Serial Number 2012, identified the same as his signature acknowledged August 16, 1917, beir a claim for discharge or exemption; said document was thereupon offered and admitted in evidence as Government's Exhibit 162, which documents are i words and figures as follows:)

Do not lose this opportunity to attend a Mass Meeting next Tuesday eve ing August 28th, 1917, a 8 P. M., at Hod Carriers' Hall, Harrison and Gree Streets, which is being arranged for by the Council of Socialist Conscripts to outline a plan for your future guidance. Good speakers will address the meeting.

Bring your membership book for identification. None but those holding membership books will be admitted.

Yours for comradeship,

THE COUNCIL OF SOCIALIST CONSCRIPTS.

GOVT. EX. 161.

Comrade:

u undoubtedly know the position of the Socialist Party against participain war. It is, therefore, the opinion of lawyers and others, that Socialist members can claim exemption on that ground, if they put a cross in of paragraph "i", form 121, upon the claim of discharge blank, which can secure at your Exemption Board.

not forget that you Must file such claim within seven days from date e mailing to you of the notice to appear. You will then have ten addi

1 days to file affidavits in support of your claims. lawyers committee is now at work upon proper affidavits for that purpose, you may procure such affidavits at the County Office after August 8th, 1917. Yours fraternally,

COUNCIL OF SOCIALIST CONSCRIPTS.

GOV. EX. 162.

Aug. 16, 1917.

Serial Number 2012

l Board #61 4512 No. Drake Ave.

Affidavit of Persons Whose Discharge is Brought.

David Mendelsohn, do solemnly affirm that I am 30 years old, and reside 4518 No Kimball Ave Chicago, Cook Co., Illinois. And that serial ber 2012 was given to me by local board #61 4512 No Drake Ave, Chicago, and that claim for my discharge was filed with said local board on the day of August 1917 on the ground that I am a conscientious objector and upport of said claim respectfully assign the following:

-That the act entitled "An act to authorize the President of the United es to increase temporarily the military force of the United States, etc.; oved May 18, 1917 is unconstitutional in that the said act violates the first endment to the constitution of the United States; also Article 1 and subsions 1 and 15 of Sec. 8; also Sec. 1 of Article 13; also Sec. 4 of Article f the constitution, each and all the provisions of the Constitution of the ted States:

-That the passage and enforcement of the said act, without referendum icious in that it destroys Republican form of Government.

and further as a conscientious objector in that I am a member in good standing of the Socialist Party of America, a well organized organization 0 existing May 18, 1917, standing preeminently for peace and unalterably opposed to the support of this war; whose object is to retain intact the al of International Brotherhood, and whose then existing principles, parpation in war is incompatible, and whose convictions are against war or ticipation therein in accordance with the creed and principles of the said 1 recognized organization whose principles forbade its members to parpate in war and that this fact entitled me to exemption under section num4 of the Selective Draft Law.

do further solemnly affirm that the Socialist Party has consistently mainned a constitution and platform which have expressed its opposition to war the participation of its members in war and that it has consistently mainned this position ever since the outbreak of the European war and long before is demonstrated by the proclamation of same committee of August 14, 1914, -party manifesto on the Lusitania crisis of May, 1915, the peace platform opted in May 1915, the U Boat manifesto of April 21, 1916 and the message President Wilson of March 30, 1917, copies of which will be furnished your ard on request.

And further in support of said claim assigns Article ii, Section 7, of the nanal constitution of the Socialist Party of the United States of America which reads as follows:

41

"Article 11, Section 7. Any member of the Socialist Party, elected to office, who shall in any way vote to appropriate moneys for military or val purposes, or war, shall be expelled from the party."

I do further solemnly affirm that A. M. Simons and Winfield E. Gaylord of ilwaukee and Charles Edward Russell of New York were expelled from the