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down in Texas published by a man by the name of Hickey. The American alist, the Texas Rebel, The Four Lights and The Call were all present. went to Judge Herron and I told them that I had been for the war before ng into it, from the time Germany invaded Belgium, and that I disagreed

the opinions of practically all that were interested in these papers, on "ight and duty in going into the war but that I believed in a broad freedom veech and of press, and that I thought that a fair showing, on both sides, ould win with the country, and I thought we could do it easier and better ive a broad freedom of the press. I said if there were specific things that ld not be published they ought to be indicated and the newspapers be pred, but I thought the papers themselves ought not to be suppressed, exin matters of great emergency. 1. Herron said that his department had no responsibility in the matter; had brought no indictments under the statute and that the Postmaster General was acting in his own behalf, or, as he understood things to be, without consultation with him and that it was not in his department

and he didn't see what they could do with reference to the Postmaster ral, but, as to whether these questions should be denied the use of the s at the Attorney General's Office--that the opinion of the Attorney Gens office was pretty well shown by the fact that they had not brought any etments. There were documents and leaflets presented at that time. I

that if they were right their opinions ought to prevail, if they were ag, as I fully believed they were wrong, that I thought we could meet i in the open discussion and win. went to see the Postmaster General with the rest of the committee by vintment. We went into a general discussion of the subject I told him

if, in the opinion of the Postmaster General there were articles in these rs that should not be published, I thought it was only fair to the pubrs of the papers that they should indicate what those were or what they 2 permitted and what they did not permit. He didn't point out just what bjected to. He said, “why don't they discuss Socialism alone, say nothing it the war?I told him they were all interested in the war and it would Dretty hard for them not to make a reference to the war, and that if the

war was not to be discussed except in certain ways, or certain things were not to be said they ought to indicate what could be said and what

could not. After an hour or so he referred us to somebody else. He not point out what special things were objected to or indicato any line ch they would be safe to follow. I think Mr. Herron said the department d not give an opinion on these questions unless it was asked for, but he

they didn't act on them themselves. He said they were not in agreement stmaster General and Attorney General), as to how far they would permit papers to go. We sajd there ought to be uniform position; that it ought le taken up in the Cabinet meetings, so they could have the opinion of all hem and that the departments of government ought to agree to lay down blicy for those people who did not believe the United States should be in war, or who opposed its method, or saw fit to criticise it. I went back Nashington after that and interviewed Senators in regard to this matter. Engdahl and Mr. Stedman were with me. I saw the Postmaster General the President. I urged to the Postmaster General to lay down a line of cy. I told him I thought he was clamping the lid on too tight. t instead of helping to win the war it was antagonizing a great many

people who otherwise might be with us. * He replied the only } direction he could give was that they should not mention the war, go on

with their Socialism. We went to another department, consulted kery of Missouri. He listened to us and took it under advisement as he ed it and we went out. discussed the matter with the President. It was largely a question of losophy as to the limits of freedom of speech and press. He said there no way of defining exactly the line.

That it was an indefinite that could not be drawn with certainty.

That he wanted to do s liberally and fairly as he could, and still felt that it ought to be done. as paid my expenses I was not paid as an attorney.

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Cro88-Examination by Mr. Fleming.

was at 803 West Madison street about July 6th, 1917. The current issue the American Socialist had been held up. I remember the advertisement the paniphlet was mentioned as one of the reasons, “The Price We Pay"

I think I read the advertisement of the pamphlet-I think I read “ The Pl We Pay".

At the meeting before Judge Herron the general policy of the paper reference to the issues going through the mail was discussed more than a thing else. There were representatives of “New York Call." “ The Four Light "The Rebel," "The Masses”.

I think the circulation of the pamphlet entitled “Proclamation and Program” would have the effect of encouraging enlistment in the army sern

of the United States with some, and with some it would have the 1229 posite tendency. I mean that people act from all kinds of psychologi

Some people are scared by horror, and others say “ Well if that is case, we have got to go in and help.” Those persons who believe that in modern history there has been no war more unjustifiable than the war which we are about to engage, etc. would not inspire confidence in the tu of the United States by reading that pamphlet. I think with some it mi have the tendency to stimulate recruiting. I think the average person would think much about Government's Exhibit entitled “ Realities of War"; that they would think a great deal of it was absurd; with some it would have effect of helping the recruiting service and others it would not. I think t average man would think that most of those pictures are made for Sociali rather than war, and would not be much influenced. I think the pictures the horrors would make many people angry, the same as they did in Englan and they would enlist; and I think others would be scared that they mig get hurt, and would not enlist-so far as it affected them.

Referring to Government's Exhibit entitled “War and Women” I think would hurt the Government in its operations in connection with raising

army and would aid the Government, it would do both. Some would 1230 disgusted at it and join, and some would not.

(Thereupon the witness was referred to an advertisement carri in the issues of the American Socialist entitled “Buy a Liberty Bond", etc

The Witness: I do not think that is a sentiment calculated to encourage ti sale of Liberty Bonds. I do not recall the article entitled “Wake upth Ame ica" in the American Socialist, issue of June 23rd.

I utterly disagreed with the St. Louis platform. My trip had to do oa in so far as it affected this case, the circulation of papers. I would not tend to advise Engdahl or anybody else that the dissemination of “Why F Should Fight” and the Price We Pay” was not in violation of crimit statutes, I was too uncertain.

Mr. Fleming: Q You believe there ought to be a limitation imposed up the right of free speech and writings during war time, do you not?

(Objection by defendants as incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial ; obj tion overruled ; exception.)

A. Yes sir.

The Witness: Well, I said they ought to do anything necessary to win war when it is on, pretty nearly.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Stedman.

Referring to the suggestion that bonds should not be subscribed for I

not thought about it but I can see how the Socialist theory might be 1231 run the war without the necessity of a bond issue. Their suggestions

to pay for it as it went along. It might well be connected with this I did not mean to say that it (the Espionage Act) was not discussed befs Judge Herron. I said that you could not tell exactly what it meant, or difference between direct influence or indirect influence; the direct effect advising a specific man not to enlist or the publishing of pamphlets or lite ture that night be calculated to prevent somebody from enlisting, and I reme ber distinctly his saying that the attitude of the law department so far be inferred from the fact that there had been no prosecution at that time. have practiced law 41 years.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Fleming. The Espionage Act had been on the books for less than one month at time of our meeting before Judge Herron.

ILLIAM BROSS LLOYD, called as a witness on behalf of the defendants. having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Stedman.

I reside in Illinois ; in business as a lawyer and trustee. I am acquainted

with Arnold Schiller. 32 I saw him about October 20th. He came up to my office. He talked to

Mr. Howe who was in my office, and Howe asked him what he was doing up re and he said the Government sent him up here because he was going to stify in court in the Berger trial. Mr. Howe asked him what he was going

testify about and he said " Oh, Kruse left several of my letters lying ound his office, like a God damn fool, and the Government got hold of them ", d he said, I've got to testify, they've got it on me in several different direcins and I've got to testify”. "A man has got to protect himself, look out [ himself.” He also talked about his various insubordination, about being sent without leave. He also talked about the war, very much liked the St. Juis Proclamation.

Cross-Examination by Mr. Fleming.

I was a Socialist candidate at that time. Schiller came up to call on L. C. udemeyer a stenographer ip my office.

Direct Examination (Continued) by Mr. Stedman. He (Schiller) said that he had to protect himself, look out for himself and ve his own hide.

Cross-Examination (Continued) by Mr. Fleming.

Howe told me after this conversation that he (Schiller) had been before

the Grand Jury. Schiller told me at that meeting in October, 1918, 33 that he had orders to go back on a certain train and that he was ignoring

those orders.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Stedman.

My Father Henry D. Lloyd born in New York City, and Aaron Lloyd was leutenant Governor of Illinois, I have no German ancestors. Myself and others own large interests in the Chicago Tribune. I am interested in this i any other Socialist would be interested in this case, and as a citizen in lping the defense of men who represented the Socialist Party and in vindicatg the right of the Socialist Party to conduct its political agitations.

Recross Examination by Mr. Fleming.

I have done quite a little speech making especially since April 6th, 1917, the me of our entrance into the war. Mr. Fleming: Q You have been unsparing in your denunciation of our untry? (Objection by defendants as incompetent, irrelevant and immaterial; obction overruled ; exception.) The Witness: A Yes, sir. I have criticised the Government's war policy id denounced the war as the capitalist war and accept that provision of the :. Louis Platform which calls for the repudiation of war debts.

Redirect Examination by Mr. Stedman.

I am a capitalist. 34 I resigned as director in The Tribune because I could have no influence

on The Tribune policy and I disagreed with it absolutely.

DAVID MENDELSOHN, called as a witness on behalf of the defendants, bay been first duly sworn, testified as follows:

Direct Examination by Mr. Johnson. I am thirty-one years of age. I ame employed by Mr. Culhane, Chia I know Arnold Schiller. I talked with him with reference to a secret i in the latter part of July or 1st of August, 1917 in the County Office. Schi asked me if I wanted to go to his Uncle's farm in Michigan to evade the do that it was a nice secluded place, no one could find you there, that you di stand within 20 feet of the house and be out of danger, that he had a sa of provisions there to last six months, that he could renew that supply ati time he wanted to. On November the 10th, 1917, at the 27th Ward brane the Socialist Party I met Schiller there in uniform. I asked him when was going back. He replied “When I get good and ready." I told him, “ You are foolish," and he (Schiller) said, “Well, I don't a

I have been in the guard house before, I will take my chances." 1235 I was a member of an organization known as the Council of Socia

Conscripts consisting of members of draft age organized solely to g legal aid to Socialists of draft age and other persons, making out their clai for exemption, and also trying to get a ruling on the draft law, with refere to that provision in the Act relating to religious sects or organizations he exempt from compulsory military service. We thought we would come un that heading. Kruse was present.

There was a committee appointed to draw up a set of resolutions to send the President of the United States asking him for a favorable ruling on thi provision with reference to conscientious objectors to war, that is, whetha Socialist was entitled to the benefit of that section. Affidavits for claims 1 exemption were prepared for members of the Socialist Party to claim exempti as conscientious objectors. I filed a claim for exemption on the grounds dependency and as a conscientious objector, being opposed to war in princi and as a protest. I have two brothers who are now in France in the military service.

Cro88-Éramination by Mr. Fleming. I do not know of any members of the League of Socialist conscripts who

fused to serve. 1236 Our headquarters was at the National Office 803 W. Madison St. D.

they kicked us out. I have never spoken to Kruse and am not sonally acquainted with him. He was present at two meetings of the Leag of Socialist Conscripts.

I was given Class 4 by Local Board. One of my brothers enlisted a we before he was drafted, the other one tried to enlist, was rejected and afterwar recalled and sent overseas in six weeks, by draft.

(Thereupon the witness was referred to letter sent out by Conscript Leag which document was identified by the witness.)

(Thereupon there was offered and received in evidence Government's 1 hibits 160 and 161.)

(Thereupon the witness was referred to a certain document Serial Num 2012, identified the same as his signature acknowledged August 16, 1917, bel a claim for discharge or exemption ; said document was thereupon offered s admitted in evidence as Government's Exhibit 162, which documents are words and figures as follows:) 1237

GOV. EX. 160. Dear Comrade:

Do not lose this opportunity to attend a Mass Meeting next Tuesday ere ing August 28th, 1917, a 8 P. M., at Hod Carriers' Hall, Harrison and Gra Streets, which is being arranged for by the Council of Socialist Conscripts outline a plan for your future guidance. Good speakers will address meeting.

Bring your membership book for identification. None but those hoidi membership books will be admitted. Yours for comradeship,

THE COUNCIL OF SOCIALIST CONSCRIPTE

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ear Comrade: You undoubtedly know the position of the Socialist Party against participaon in war. It is, therefore, the opinion of lawyers and others, that Socialist arty members can claim exemption on that ground, if they put a cross in ont of paragraph "i", form 121, upon the claim of discharge blank, which yu can secure at your Exemption Board. Do not forget that you Must file such claim within seven days from date

the mailing to you of the notice to appear. You will then have ten addional days to file affidavits in support of your claims. A lawyers committee is now at work upon proper affidavits for that purpose, ad you may procure such affidavits at the County Office after August 8th, 1917. Yours fraternally,

JOUNCIL OF SOCIALIST CONSCRIPTS.

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I, David Mendelsohn, do solemnly affirm that I am 30 years old, and reside t 4518 No Kimball Ave Chicago, Cook Co., Illinois. And that serial umber 2012 was given to me by local board #61 4512 No Drake Ave, Chicago, 11, and that claim for my discharge was filed with said local board on the th day of August 1917 on the ground that I am a conscientious objector and I support of said claim respectfully assign the following:

A.-That the act entitled “An act to authorize the President of the United tates to increase temporarily the military force of the United States, etc.; proved May 18, 1917 is unconstitutional in that the said act violates the first mendment to the constitution of the United States; also Article 1 and sublivisions 1 and 15 of Sec. 8; also Sec. 1 of Article 13; also Sec. 4 of Article

of the constitution, each and all the provisions of the Constitution of the Jnited States :

B.--That the passage and enforcement of the said act, without referendum s vicious in that it destroys Republican form of Government. And further as a conscientious objector in that I am a member in good stand

ing of the Socialist Party of America, a well organized organization 240 existing May 18, 1917, standing preeminently for peace and unalterably

opposed to the support of this war; whose object is to retain intact the deal of International Brotherhood, and whose then existing principles, paricipation in war is incompatible, and whose convictions are against war or articipation therein in accordance with the creed and principles of the said vell recognized organization whose principles forbade its members to paricipate in war and that this fact entitled me to exemption under section numJer 4 of the Selective Draft Law.

I do further solemnly affirm that the Socialist Party has consistently mainained a constitution and platform which have expressed its opposition to war or the participation of its members in war and that it has consistently mainained this position ever since the outbreak of the European war and long before is is demonstrated by the proclamation of same committee of August 14, 1914, he party manifesto on the Lusitania crisis of May, 1915, the peace platform idopted in May 1915, the U Boat manifesto of April 21, 1916 and the message 0 President Wilson of March 30, 1917, copies of which will be furnished your joard on request.

And further in support of said claim assigns Article ii, Section 7, of the naional constitution of the Socialist Party of the United States of America which

reads as follows: 1241 "Article 11, Section 7. Any member of the Socialist Party, elected to

office, who shall in any way vote to appropriate moneys for military or naval purposes, or war, shall be expelled from the party.”

I do further solemnly affirm that A. M. Simons and Winfield E. Gaylord of Milwaukee and Charles Edward Russell of New York were expelled from the

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