is quite limited. San Diego is one of the most important naval bases on the Pacific coast; also around and to the north of San Diego are many large and important training bases for our Marine forces. Interruption to the traffic moving to this important naval area would have quite serious consequence. M. C. BLANCHARD, Chief Engineer.

The Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Railway Co.-Coast lines-Recapitulation of train operations, first district, Los Angeles division, March 1943, Cajon, Lytle Creek area

Mr. ELLIOTT. Between the Southern Pacific, the Santa Fe, and the Union Pacific your problems are similar in character, the Santa Fe serving the southern part of the State of California on behalf of the war effort at the present time, whereas the Union Pacific and the Southern Pacific serve the northern part also, and it is imperative that we have some immediate action, if at all possible?

Mr. BLANCHARD. That is correct; because this affected area is all in about 3 miles, and it puts the whole railroad set-up out of business. Mr. ELLIOTT. At the time of Pearl Harbor if we had had a flood in this particular area, three of the main railroads or arteries of troop movement, food, and equipment would have tied up indefinitely? Mr. BLANCHARD. That is right.

Mr. ELLIOTT. I think this is one of the most important things, Mr. Chairman, that has been brought to this committee, and that it should have immediate action.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Blanchard, why can you not take the railroad around and bring it across here [indicating on map]? Is this a pass?

Mr. BLANCHARD. It is the Cajon Pass.

The CHAIRMAN. You cannot go south or north there?

Mr. BLANCHARD. The Southern Pacific comes in from the south and we come in here [indicating on map].

Mr. SHEPPARD. I would like to call Mr. F. W. Spencer, assistant engineer, Pacific Electric Railway Co., with headquarters at Los Angeles, Calif.

STATEMENT OF F. W. SPENCER, ASSISTANT ENGINEER, PACIFIC ELECTRIC RAILWAY CO., LOS ANGELES, CALIF.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Spencer, you are assistant engineer of the Pacific Electric Railway Co.?

Mr. SPENCER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Where does that railroad start and stop?

Mr. SPENCER. Well, Mr. Chairman, we operate approximately a hundred miles of railroad in and around Los Angeles.

The CHAIRMAN. The railroad is operated by electric power?

Mr. SPENCER. Yes, sir. Of course at the present time our operations are so heavy in freight that we are operating steam as well as electricity to handle the load.

The CHAIRMAN. Your railroad is located in the Los Angeles metropolitan area?

Mr. SPENCER. Yes, and extends to Colton and San Bernardino.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not go any farther east?

Mr. SPENCER. Substantially that is the terminus.

The CHAIRMAN. So, that terminus is affected by floods as well as any other part of your railroad?

Mr. SPENCER. Yes, sir. Both our lines are crossed in two places by two branches of Lytle Creek.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any point with respect to the extent of these floods that you would like to emphasize in addition to what has already been brought to our attention by preceding witnesses on behalf of the Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, and Union Pacific Railways?

Mr. SPENCER. The Pacific Electric Railway Co. serves Los Angeles Harbor area and Long Beach. It is one of the principal carriers of freight to those ports, and at the present time we are receiving from the Southern Pacific Co. in the neighborhood of 200 carloads a day of export freight for transmittal to the harbor.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you transport that freight through the pass or do you get it after you get through the pass?

Mr. SPENCER. We get it afterward. Lytle Creek crosses our San Bernardino line just west of the city of San Bernardino, and when we are washed out at that point there is no possible traffic that can move over our line from San Bernardino into the city of Los Angeles and down to the ports. The line from San Bernardino to Colton is also crossed by this stream, and when there is a washout we cannot interchange freight to Los Angeles, because it has to go from Colton up to San Bernardino and thence into Los Angeles.

In addition to the export traffic we are receiving, we also are now handling approximately the same number of loads of oil and oil products from the refineries in southern California for interchange to the Southern Pacific Co. at Colton. Many industries, military establishments, large defense plants, some of the largest in the State, are served by us jointly with other railroads, and all of that traffic, or a substantial portion of it, is routed over our line for interchange with the Santa Fe at San Bernardino and the Union Pacific and Southern Pacific at Colton.

Similarly shipments routed via our line that come in over the steam roads are interchanged at those points. We have our interchange facilities in the Los Angeles area, and when they cannot get into Los Angeles, they just can't get in.

The CHAIRMAN. So your traffic is largely interchanged in this area that is under investigation?

Mr. SPENCER. A substantial portion of it at the present time is interchange traffic, but we also have a lot of traffic that originates on our lines and is for shipment east and we take it.

The CHAIRMAN. It has to go to one or the other of these railroads? Mr. SPENCER. Yes. Of course there is local traffic also between the cities.

The CHAIRMAN. With respect to floods, what have you to say? Mr. SPENCER. Our San Bernardino line was out of service for a period of 7 days in 1943. We had some 300 feet of embankment washed out.

The CHAIRMAN. How far is it from one of those places to the other [indicating on map]?

Mr. SPENCER. About 3 miles. The line from San Bernardino to Colton was covered with mud, debris, and silt for a distance of something over a quarter of a mile.

The CHAIRMAN. Your system had a repetition of flood damage in 1943 and 1938 at this point?

Mr. SPENCER. Yes, sir. In 1938 the storm was much heavier. That is, there was more run-off. Our line was more severely damaged and we were out of service for a period of 11 days.

The CHAIRMAN. And the other lines in proportion?
Mr. SPENCER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any matter that has not been brought out that you would like to emphasize as to the cause and the remedy for floods in this interim report that we have under consideration?

Mr. SPENCER. I think that the other witnesses have brought out everything that I could say, excepting this, that the velocity of the water in the channel is unbelievable unless you see it when it is really running. It is a sight to see one of those mountain torrents when it is really raining. I have been familiar with them for 23 years, with the Pacific Electric Railway Co., and I take care of all flood-control matters.

Mr. POULSON. Is it not true that you handle all of the local traffic, and especially passengers, since we have our gasoline problems, from San Bernardino into Los Angeles?

Mr. SPENCER. We have heavy passenger traffic.

Mr. POULSON. Local?

Mr. SPENCER. Yes, sir. It is mainly now carried in motor coaches. But the highways are washed out also, and that interferes with the traffic.

There is one other thing that I do not thing has been touched on, and that is that in 1943 one of the transcontinental trunk telephone lines was out of commission for several days because of the flood.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Do you feel, then, that it is imperative that this committee should do whatever it can to speed up the work on this project and eliminate this dangerous condition?

Mr. SPENCER. Yes, sir. I believe it is a real emergency.

Mr. ELLIOTT. There is a real emergency and a real need for action? Mr. SPENCER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Sheppard, I believe this completes the list of witnesses your furnished us; is that correct?

Mr. SHEPPARD. No; there is one more witness, and then there is a witness from the great city of Los Angeles who would like to be heard briefly, if it is not taking up too much of the time of the committee.

STATEMENT OF B. H. PRATER, CHIEF ENGINEER, UNION PACIFIC RAILROAD CO., OMAHA, NEBR.

The CHAIRMAN. You are Mr. B. H. Prater, and you are chief engineer of the Union Pacific Railroad Co. ?

Mr. PRATER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Does your company own the line that comes through this Colton area, or do you operate over the Santa Fe?

Mr. PRATER. We own the line that extends from Salt Lake City south to the junction of the Santa Fe

The CHAIRMAN. And that is how far from Colton?

Mr. PRATER. About a hundred miles.

The CHAIRMAN. And you use the Santa Fe from there on?

Mr. PRATER. We operate jointly over their tracks.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything that has not been developed in connection with the cause or the remedy for floods in this particular area that you would like to bring to our attention?

Mr. PRATER. Nearly everything that I would care to say has been said, but you have shown quite an interest in the 1938 flood, and I have something, I think, that would be interesting on that.

In the 1938 flood the Union Pacific line east of Daggett was out of commission for 19 days.

The CHAIRMAN. This flood extended over there?

Mr. PRATER. In some cases the floods flow both ways. In this area it comes down Lytle Creek.

I think there is a point here that will be interesting to you.
The CHAIRMAN. That point is what?

Mr. PRATER. In the 1938 flood the water flowed both ways, and on the east went down the river and tore the Union Pacific bridge and other construction for 50 miles. The Union Pacific at that time was required to spend about ane and a half million dollars to get back into operation, and of that amount $600,000 was additional capital expended on bridges in the 1943 flood.

We had a lot of water in Mojave. I am satisfied that in 1943 had our line been in the condition it was in in 1938 we would have been washed out again. But we were in very much better shape. We are pretty well reinforced on the other side. We can take it a lot better than we did in 1938.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there any other point you want to bring out with respect to this area?

Mr. PRATER. There are one or two things that will take about a minute.

First of all, with reference to the three railroads delivering as far as Colton and San Bernardino, the Santa Fe, the Southern Pacific, and the Union Pacific, you want to keep in mind that they have collected traffic from all the eastern lines at some point, everything that is going through the Los Angeles area by rail. There is nobody else to take it.

The CHAIRMAN. You cannot carry it to San Francisco and take it down the coast?

Mr. PRATER. It could be done in normal times. But that line is full. We cannot put any more business on those rails.

When we get as far as San Bernardino and Colton, then we have four lines to distribute this to the Los Angeles area, the same three lines, plus the Pacific Electric. All these lines have hauled this freight a couple of thousand miles to get it to its place. When this line goes out [indicating] there is a complete blockade, so far as rail service for the Los Angeles area is concerned. There is not very much opportunity to know that this thing is going to happen. If the conditions are right, and if certain things take place, you are going to get this terrible flood.