Mr. JOHNSON. Do you think that that statement of yours about the age limit, from 6 to 18, is correct in all States? Don't you comply with the State laws as to children?

Mr. COLLIER. Where they go to public schools, we do. I mean, our power to regulate attendance, I think, runs from 6 to 18. I think that is the regulation. But, obviously, it is meaningless, because we do not have the facilities for those older children. We have no place to put them.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Do you mean to tell me that the Government fails to provide the money to send Indian children to school to the number of some 50,000?

Mr. COLLIER. No. In the number of some 18,000 out of approximately 90,000. They are still without school facilities.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. For what reason?

Mr. COLLIER. Because we have not built the schools yet.

Many that were unschooled 5 years ago have been taken care of out of P. W. A. grants. On the Navajo Reservation, for example, there are still 5,000 unschooled children for whom there are no facilities. There were 10,000 of them 4 years ago. We have not been able to school all of them.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. What seems to be wrong? It does not seem believable that such a thing could happen.

Mr. COLLIER. As a matter of fact, the Government has owed the Navajo children schooling under treaty ever since 1866. It did not make any pretense of living up to the obligation until 4 or 5 years ago. Now it has taken a big forward step, but we have not built all of the Indian schools yet.

Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. Commissioner, it is not true that in those instances referred to by you a great many of those children live in remote areas where it would be very difficult to provide schools for them?

Mr. COLLIER. Probably so. But we have found with the Navajos that we could build and operate day schools very much more economically than to run boarding schools for them.

A lot of people said that those children would not be able to come; that they would not come. But they have come. They throng the schools. How they get there I don't know. The eagerness of the Indian for schooling exceeds the eagerness of any other population that I know of. Compulsion is not needed.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Has your Bureau requested more money to make it possible to send these children to school?

Mr. COLLIER. Yes. A part of our construction request that fared so ill with the Budget was for schools.

Mr. LAMBERTSON. It is your policy, is it, to continue boarding schools?

Mr. COLLIER. In the current Budget we requested nearly a million dollars for more day schools.

REDUCTION IN NUMBER OF INDIAN CHILDREN IN BOARDING SCHOOLS

Mr. FITZPATRICK. They have eliminated the boarding schools? Mr. DODD. That is the construction estimate that we have been talking about.

Mr. LEAVY. What was your question, Mr. Lambertson?

Mr. LAMBERTSON. You have adopted the policy of discontinuing boarding schools, and gradually they are being eliminated in favor of sending the children into the public schools?

Mr. COLLIER. Up to a certain point. We have cut the boarding school population down from about 22,000 to about 14,000. Something may be said for that policy, but it seems to be contrary to the new thought of bringing these Indians back into tribal relationships. In 1936 the boarding school cost was nearly $350 per capita per annum. If you were to send all of the Indian childern to boarding schools, it would run your school cost alone to higher than $30,000,000 a year. Now, your day school does not cost anything like that rate. tribal Indian can be schooled at a day school just as effectively as at a boarding school, and it saves 250 percent by having them live at home.

A

Mr. LEAVY. But if you send an Indian to a public school does not he lose his tribal identity?

Mr. COLLIER. That is true. At the public school. I am speaking about the day school run by the Government. But the Indian children in the public schools is a policy that goes away back to 1920. We gradually put more of them into the public schools so that now there are fifty thousand and some hundreds in the public schools.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. If you ever expect the Indians to be self-supporting, it is very necessary to educate them.

Mr. COLLIER. I would say so.

Mr. LAMBERTSON. Mr. Hastings used to argue that a full-blooded Indian child would not go to school; that they would be out of school because they would not want to mix with the white children. I remember how they used to argue that point. He was very much against the discontinuance of the boarding schools. But I don't know about that. I have a high opinion of these high schools and things of that kind.

Mr. COLLIER. We have always had a great many Indians in the public schools. And they are very successful in the public schools. They go right along with the white children in Oklahoma.

NUMBER AND SALARY OF EMPLOYEES PROMOTING INDIAN

REORGANIZATION ACT

Mr. JOHNSON. I suggest that Mr. Harper finish his statement. The committee, I am sure, would like to know how many assistants or clerks are under his supervision.

Mr. DODD. That is shown on page 73, Mr. Johnson. There are 14 employees in the Washington office and 15 in the field. The total Washington office pay roll is approximately $40,260, and for what we call the permanent field positions it is $31,960.

And then Mr. Harper spoke of the temporary assistants. We set up in the Budget approximately $16,500 for those temporary assistants on the reservations.

Mr. JOHNSON. Are a majority of those employees Indians or white, including the clerks in the Washington office?

Mr. HARPER. In my immediate office we have six girls, of whom four are Indians and two whites.

Mr. JOHNSON. Where are they from?

Mr. HARPER. One is from New York State, a Seneca Indian. One is a Pueblo from New Mexico. One is from Wisconsin, and the other is from Oklahoma.

Mr. JOHNSON. I would like for the record to show how many in your service are from Oklahoma, where we have over one-third of the entire Indian population.

Mr. HARPER. I will have to get that.

Mr. JOHNSON. I am anxious to see a list of your set-up. But if reports are true, Oklahoma is practically ignored. It is a thing that I have complained about for several years-that in nearly every instance Oklahoma, with 130,000 Indians, has not received a proper recognition from the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Mr. COLLIER. On a population basis there are more Oklahoma Indians employed than Indians from other areas.

Mr. JOHNSON. If that is true, I want it put into the record.

Mr. HARPER. Of the seven Oklahoma field agents two are from Oklahoma.

Mr. JOHNSON. Are they Indians?

Mr. HARPER. Yes. They are Indians. The following statement is submitted, at the request of the committee.

Indian assistant positions authorized for educational compaigns for elections pending under the Indian Reorganization Act of June 18, 1934 (salary not to exceed $3 per day each)

Mr. LEAVY. Let me ask you this: Are any of your employees from the classified service on your staff, that is, taken from the civil service? Mr. HARPER. I think most of them are civil service.

Mr. DODD. That is correct.

Mr. LEAVY. I know that they are graded as senior clerks and so on. What is your official designation?

Mr. HARPER. Field administrator in charge. "Field representative" is my official title.

Mr. LEAVY. Then you fall in grade 12 here with a salary of $4,600? Mr. HARPER. That is correct.

Mr. LEAVY. Are there three more field representatives?

Mr. HARPER. Yes.

Mr. LEAVY. There are four of you?

Mr. HARPER. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. Are the four of you receiving the same salary?

Mr. HARPER. Yes.

Mr. LEAVY. Are you all working in this office?

Mr. HARPER. No. I will say for myself that I spend more than half of my time in the field.

I have an office here in Washington, running the routine here in conjunction with Mr. Daiker, who is an assistant to the Commissioner. Then I spend much more time in the field. Last year I spent more than 50 percent of my time traveling in the field, going around on this organization work.

In addition to myself there is Dr. H. Scudder Mekeel, classified as field representative. He is an anthropologist. Perhaps Mr. Collier will give you more of the background of his appointment and his purpose in this particular field of activity.

Then there is Mr. Louis Balsam, who is getting $3,800, and Mr. Oscar H. Lipps at $4,600.

He

Mr. Lipps is intending to spend most of his time in Alaska. has already been there and made a preliminary study of our problem, has come back, and has reported rather thoroughly; and conferences have been held here as to how to proceed in Alaska. It is a new problem to us. He will shortly return to Alaska for an intensive job during the summer months.

Mr. LEAVY. You are converting this $3,800 position from grade 11 to grade 12 under this appropriation? Last year you had it at $3,800? Mr. HARPER. Yes.

Mr. LEAVY. You had three in grade him in grade 12 and none in grade 11. at $3,800, goes into grade 12 at $4,600?

12, and you are now carrying This one, who was grade 11,

Mr. Dopp. That is correct, because all four jobs are on an equality. Mr. LAMBERTSON. You didn't come in under civil service?

Mr. HARPER. No, sir.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Do you consult the Civil Service on these changes in the grade and salary? Do they approve that under the Classification Act?

Mr. DODD. The field representatives are not actual civil-service positions, but they do establish the grades for us.

We had one man employed this year for a part of the year. We made a shift, transferring him to the credit organization. Then in filling that position we filled it on the same level with the other three. Mr. FITZPATRICK. If they do not have to take any civil-service examination, how do they qualify? By application?

Mr. DODD. They are not required especially to qualify. You see, the field representative jobs are jobs that because of the character of the work are excluded from civil-service requirements. We simply send up to the Commission the application and the papers for the appointment.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Yes. That is what I am trying to bring out. They fill out that application?

Mr. DODD. Yes.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Do they qualify on what they put in that application?

Mr. DODD. I would say they do; yes, sir.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Then is there a personal interview after they have qualified?

Mr. DODD. Between the Civil Service Commission and the applicant?

Mr. FITZPATRICK. No; between your Department and the appli

cant.

Mr. DODD. The interview takes place before the papers are ever put in. The appointees are selected by the Commissioner himself. Mr. COLLIER. Appointed by the Secretary. These are exempted positions, not under civil service.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. That is just what I am trying to bring out. When he selects them, how does he select them? From application, or how?

Mr. COLLIER. They are all appointed in a routine manner on application.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. That is just the point. Then has what they put on that application anything to do with their qualifications for appointment?

Mr. COLLIER. Presumably. They describe their record, their achievements, the jobs which they have held. All those things go on the application blank. It is the same as an application for any job.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Yes. And after that application is filed, assume that 50 or 60 or 80 persons fill out applications for the one position. How are they selected by the Department?

Mr. COLLIER. They would be interviewed by me. I would recommend to the Secretary of the Interior whom I wanted to have appointed. He would refer the matter to his personnel officer, Mr. Burlew.