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future. No one begrudges that money. It is necessary for the defense of the country, especially if we are to keep out of the situation that seems to be so popular in other nations.

But haven't we in this crime situation just as important a problem or a crisis on our hands as we have when we are trying to keep out of war? In other words, we have a situation which is in a small way & civil war as far as crime is concerned.

I believe, in other words, that if we can justify 80 to 85 percent of the Government appropriations for the protection of the country from foreign invasion, we can justify $50,000 of that enormous Government bill to help prevent internal war or to help us take care of the men who have been broken in the fight with crime.

Mr. Rich. May I ask just one question: If you had an appropriation of $50,000, would that work in conjunction with the crime studies that you were speaking of this morning?

Dr. STUDEBAKER. Yes. You remember, I had a chart showing certain services which are not present in the Office of Education, but which because of these large modern social problems ought to be present there; and the one Mr. Gill presents is one of them.

Mr. Rich. You would try to teach us that we would not have the criminals in the institutions if possible, and the educational advantages that you would give to the people to prohibit men from becoming criminals?

Dr. STUDEBAKER. There are two sides to the problem. As one of the sides we ought to be at work studying as carefully as we do any other field of education the problem of education in these penal institutions.

Mr. Rich. Mr. Gill is talking about educating the men who are already in the institutions.

Dr. STUDEBAKER. They are the ones that I am speaking of.

Mr. Rich. Could you subdivide that work up with the statement that Mr. Gill proposed so that we might make a combination of the two both in and out of prison, so that we could make an appropriation of some sort for that purpose?

Dr. STUDEBAKER. I think that the reason Mr. Gill is here is because we not only had that conference last spring in my office that he mentioned, but I made a speech before the American Prison Association at Chicago in September, in which I told its members what I though could be done in the way of specific services through education to prevent crime and to help to educate prisoners who are in the penal institutions. I would be glad to file a copy of that speech if you care for it.

Mr. Rich. If you and Mr. Gill want to make a joint statement on that, we would be glad to have it for consideration.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. I want to make this statement: The commissioner of correction of the State of New York, who was once the police commissioner, communicated to me that he is very much in favor of this appropriation.

But I want to correct you. I think that you made a mistake. You said that 85 percent of all the money spent by our Government went for national defense. That is not true. You have the wrong figure there.

Mr. Gill. Perhaps it has been changed. Those used to be the figures a few years ago.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Far from it now. We do spend a lot of money, of course, on national defense; but not 85 percent.

Mr. Gill. I think that the program that I am talking of is on all fours with the program that Mr. Studebaker has in mind. It has two sides, and one is the education of the man in the prison.

Mr. Rich. If you have any statement to present, we shall be glad to have it.

Mr. JOHNSON. Let me ask you this: I am very much interested in the subject matter, but isn't it a fact that now such a program is in a limited way in practice in the penal institutions?

For example, up in Southwestern Reformatory at El Reno, which happens to be in the district that I represent in Congress, they have a very modern Federal reformatory. I visited that reformatory on two or three occasions, and I found a school going on in a dozen different rooms. The teachers were largely, if not altogether, prisoners. But I had assumed that it was in cooperation and conjunction with some department of the Government here in Washington; and I am wondering if your department has had anything to do with that.

Dr. STUDEBAKER. No; we do not. As far as I have been able to find out, there isn't anything that is being done in that field to make continuous studies of the way to improve the education of criminals.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. That would include State and Federal?
Dr. STUDEBAKER. That is right.

Mr. Gill. But in the Federal institutions we have perhaps the best educational program of any of the prisons. But I am speaking particularly of those in the States in which we have a woeful lack of education; and in many of the institutions they have no education whatever.

I talked to the Director of Prisons, Mr. Bennett, the other day; and he said he would be very glad if he could cooperate with Dr. Studebaker and with the people in the States so that the States will have the benefit of the practices that are being carried on now in the Federal institutions.

MONDAY, MARCH 15, 1937.





GENERAL STATEMENT The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions on this item, gentlemen, we will proceed to Alaska. Mr. Gordon, do you want to make a general statement to the committee explanatory of the situation concerning the appropriation?

Mr. GORDON. I believe Dr. Gruening will do that, Mr. Chairman.

POPULATION OF ALASKA Dr. GRUENING. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, the most outstanding fact about Alaska is the sparseness of its population. With an area of some 600,000 square miles, there are about 60,000 people there, of whom approximately half are white, and the remaining are Indians and Eskimos.

In summer the population is increased by a considerable number. That is, in Alaska, we have one inhabitant for every 10 square miles of territory; that is, the resident population.


For the last half century Alaska has been a great gold mine, literally as well as figuratively, for the extraction of wealth, which has bene fited our national economy. We have taken out about 2', billion dollars worth of fish, metals and surs. We think that only a beginning has been made of the development of that wealth. There are great timber resources up there that, as yet, are untouched. It has been calculated that a billion board feet of timber could be taken annually out of the forest reserves without any depletion whatever.

Mr. Johnson of Oklahoma. That timber is not worth a great deal, is it?

Dr. GRUENING. It is worth a great deal, but it is not as valuable as it may be later, gentlemen. The time for its utilization is not far ditant.

The ('HAIRMAN. Is it timber that could be sold in competition with the much better timber in adjoining regions?

Dr. GRUENING. So; perhaps it could not be sold immediately, but there seems to be considerable danger that these other timber resources will be depleted. At that time this would prove very valuable.

The (HAIRMAX. It is supposed to be good for paper-making, is it not?

The CHAIRMAN. Has it been demonstrated that it in?
Dr. GRIENING. The Forest Service telly is that it is yes, sir.
The CLAIRMAN. Is that hypothetical, or is it proven?

Dr. GRUNING. I ly that they are convinced that it is. I do not want to speak for the Forest Service, but they have told me so).



Ir. GRIVIS. Sow, we are impressed by the fact that in corresponding lutitiedem, 35 to 70, in the time Europea (ontries, of lost, Sweden 0.11 Fin. 1:1, that have just a little lotinn four-lifths of the area of lla-la, there are nearly 13.00, and people in thome countries who not only live happily, but are economically selfutanin.. who have ntainecialvider of citron We feel very deinitely that the population of Ala-ha an be in tamil, both for the benet of Alam and our antional economy, and a so to art as an outlet for a great many people in this country.


The CHAIRMAN. There is no question but what that is true if we populate it with the proper class of people, but when you populate it with people who are used to attending the white lights, and who come from centers of dense population in this country, why, that is entirely chimerical, is it not?

Dr. GRUENING. I think you naturally assume when you go to a pioneer country to build a frontier society you want to build it with people of the pioneer type.

AVAILABLE TIMBER FOR PAPER PULP-MAKING PURPOSES Mr. Rich. You spoke about the pulp, the enormous amount of timber available for pulp-making purposes. Would you tell us a little more about that, and just what location that is in?

Dr. GRUENING. There are two great regions of that timber, which is practically all in southeast Alaska, the Tongass National Forest, which occupies practically all of southeastern Alaska, and then there is the Chugach National Forest.

Mr. Rich. You spoke about the great quantity available. Can that be marketed, and is it feasible to do that in this country?

Dr. GRUENING. At the present time, most of, or a good deal of our pulpwood is, and has been, coming out of Canada, and so far it has not been considered feasible to market that, but the time is coming-and coming soon-when it will be needed.

Mr. Rich. Will you again state the quantity that you mentioned a moment ago?

Dr. GRUENING. One billion board feet can be taken out annually without depletion of the timber.

Mr. Rich. You say one billion board feet. Can you translate that into tons of pulpwood?

Dr. GRUENING. No; I cannot; but I can get you the figure for that. Mr. Rich. I wish you would put that in the record. Dr. GRUENING. Yes, sir; it is estimated that approximately one million five hundred thousand cords of pulpwood can be harvested annually producing one million tons of newsprint.

Mr. Rich. If we have that quantity available, and we can take one billion board feet out annually, why should we not develop our own resources?

Dr. GRUENING. That involves a matter of foreign policy that I am not prepared to discuss.

Mr. Gordon. I might translate it in these terms for you, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, Mr. Gordon. Mr. Gordon has been up there for years, and he knows a great deal about it, and he has also been before the committee many times.

Mr. GORDON. This is considered sufficient to supply one-fourth of the present pulp needs of the United States in perpetuity.

Mr. Rich. That is a wonderful revelation, because if we are not doing anything with it now, it is there going to waste. Why should not our own country develop that great natural resource?' I have listened to them in the Public Lands Committee state what they can do up in Oregon. If we can do in Alaska what you say we can do,

and if we can also do up in Oregon what they say we can, we are able to take care of the pulpwood situation sufficiently to give this country all it needs. Today we are importing the greatest part of our pulpwood from other countries. That is a wonderful revelation to me.

The CHAIRMAN. I think the explanation of that largely is that the transportation is so expensive.

Mr. O'NEAL. How accessible is this timber?

Dr. GRUENING. Seventy-five percent of the commercial timber lies within 2% miles of tidewater. These forests are located in the southeastern part of Alaska, running along the coast up in the Kenai Peninsula, so that it is accessible to water transportation.

I might state that before the famous crash of 1929, the Forest Service had put in years studying the possibility of developing these forest reserves, and then during the depression from which we are now emerging we were faced with these unusual conditions. That timber is a mixture of hemlock, and spruce, making a proper mixture for newsprint pulp, but not a high-grade paper. It is certainly good enough for newsprint.

Prior to the crash the Forest Service had entered into leases and contract agreements with at least one, and possibly two, of the larger newsprint manufacturers of the C'nited States for the development of certain areas, but during the period that we have just passed through they were forced to cancel those contracts and abandon the possibility for the time being. It is expected that when a similar situation again arises that there will be doubled interest in going into these areas and developing that timber.


The CHAIRMAN. Will they be interested sufficiently to put in the transportation facilities for getting it into the l'nited States at a practical price?

Dr. GRUENING. I believe so. The possibility of developing this area depends on putting in mills that will put out an enormous output per day. In other words, it depends upon quantity production. It is expected that there will be boats made available to take nothing but pulpwood on them and transport it to the west coast, and also through the Panama Canal to the east coast.

The Chairman. The whole business is hypothetical at the present time, is it not?

Dr. GrrENING. No; the whole business is not hypothetical, but is in abeyance at present. I have great respect for the Forest Service engineers and their chemists and lumber experts that have looked into this matter and have made a thorough study of the forest reserves of this area.

Now, understand, that does not take into consideration the timbered area along the Alaska Railroad, which also has some commercial value, but being less accessible, is probably of less value.

The ('HAIRMAN. Show them on the inap where that Alaska Railroad is up there, running from Seward to Fairbanks.

Mr. GORDON. The Alaska Railroad is 500 miles long, and runs from Seward up through Anchorage (indicating) to Fairbanks (indicating).

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. How far is that?
Mr. Gordon. It is approximately 500 miles in length.

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