Mr. DEMARAY. No, sir.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Can you furnish the committee with the estimate which you presented to the Budget?

Mr. DEMARAY. We presented a $7,500,000 estimate to the Budget, which is the amount authorized to be appropriated for 1938 and 1939. Work has been started and plans are prepared, and we have approximately $13,500,000 worth of work ahead of us. So that if a smaller amount is appropriated it will merely mean that we will have to slow down the program that much.

PERSONAL SERVICES IN THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA

Mr. SCRUGHAM. I see that you have a provision there that not to exceed $60,000 of the amount here appropriated may be expended for personal services in the District of Columbia during the fiscal year. Last year I made some objections to $25,000 being expended here. I see no reason why the money appropriated for the building of roads should be spent for personal services in the District of Columbia. I thought $25,000 was an excessive amount. Now this year $60,000 is asked. Will you explain that?

Mr. DEMARAY. Mr. Chairman, $25,000 has been what we have had for a long period of years. That is for the accounting force which accounts for the expenditure of this money.

We have a chief landscape architect who is our principal contact man with the Bureau of Public Roads, with which we have an interbureau agreement. He is the man that carries on our work with the Bureau of Public Roads.

His principal office has been out in San Francisco. We moved him here last year. Now, the Civil Service Commission has said that these men, who have their headquarters here, even though their work is out in the field, are departmental employees; and unless we can have this increase this year in this item, we will have to move them down to Alexandria. That is all that it means.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. On page 443 you have 70 positions. What is the necessity for those 70 clerks and stenographers and so forth?

Mr. DEMARAY. Those are the positions that we are bringing into Washington. They are already employed now.

BLUE RIDGE PARKWAY

Mr. SCRUGHAM. The next item is for the "Blue Ridge Parkway, $5,000,000."

Mr. DEMARAY. I wish to submit the following justification:

This is the first annual estimate submitted for the construction and maintenance of parkways. The act amending the Federal Aid Highway Act, approved June 16, 1936 (49 Stat., 1519-1522), section 5, authorizes an appropriation of $10,000,000 for each of the fiscal years 1938 and 1939, for the construction and maintenance of parkways to give access to national parks and national monuments, or to become connecting sections of a national parkway plan, over lands to which title has been transferred to the United States by the States or by private individuals.

The estimate of $5,000,000 is submitted for this work during the fiscal year 1938 to provide for the continuation of the construction work on the Blue Ridge Parkway. The sum of $6,816,000 allotted from Public Works funds for the initial work has been entirely obligated. The amount necessary to complete the project is estimated at $27,434,000.

Of the $5,000,000 recommended, approximately $2,000,000 is proposed for expenditure in the State of Virginia and $3,000,000 in the State of North Carolina, providing for the construction of approximately 70 miles of highway.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. I wish you would give us a little further explanation of that. There is some new language in that.

Mr. DEMARAY. Last year in the Federal Aid Highway Act, Congress authorized an appropriation for the construction of parkways on an annual basis of $10,000,000 a year for the years 1938 and 1939. This item was submitted originally in accordance with that legislation, the Federal-aid highway legislation for parkways of $10,000,000 a year. The Budget Bureau, however, limited it to the Blue Ridge Parkway, and cut the estimate from $10,000,000 to $5,000,000.

There are two parkways which have been approved, and work will start soon on the Natchez Trace Parkway, which runs from Natchez, Miss., to Nashville, Tenn., across a corner of Alabama. Additional funds unquestionably will be asked to continue that work.

Mr. RICH. They received funds for the Blue Ridge Parkway from the P. W. A., didn't they?

Mr. DEMARAY. It was started with P. W. A. funds, but last year in the Federal Aid Highway Act Congress itself authorized $10,000,000 a year for 1938 and 1939 for all approved Federal parkways.

Mr. RICH. Wasn't it two parks?

Mr. DEMARAY. It was for all parkways. It was not limited to the Blue Ridge Parkway.

Mr. RICH. A right-of-way 800 feet wile for both roads. What is the width now?

Mr. DEMARAY. It is still 800 feet.

Mr. RICH. Do you still carry it at 800 feet?

Mr. DEMARAY. It is 1,200 feet of right-of-way except where it passes through a national forest, where it is limited to the actual amount needed for the construction of the road, which will be about 60 feet.

Mr. RICH. Eight hundred feet wide and 477 miles long, I think it is.

Mr. DEMARAY. Four hundred and seventy-seven miles long, but the road is not that wide, Congressman Rich.

Mr. RICH. Why do you want it that wide?

Mr. DEMARAY. That is the right-of-way. The purpose of it, of course, is to eliminate all of the things that one now objects to on highways. You go along any highway today and you cannot escape the gasoline stations, the hot-dog stands, the calico horses, and the pottery. They make it almost a nightmare to travel from one town to another.

This highway is designed to retain the natural character of the country throughout and prevent that sort of thing from happening. Mr. RICH. You want to take half of this for the Blue Ridge?

Mr. DEMARAY. This is language which the Bureau of the Budget put in the appropriation.

Mr. RICH. Where does this parkway run?

Mr. DEMARAY. From the Smoky Mountains to Shenandoah. It is estimated to cost $25,000,000. There has been expended on it to date a little over $6,000,000.

Mr. LAMBERTSON. That is what I was referring to this morning. This is the first time the Government has ever built a road completely by itself which is an interstate road.

Mr. DEMARAY. That is right.

The total appropriation, which is all obligated at the present time, the total P. W. A. allocation, is $6,810,000. This additional $5,000,000 is to carry on a project which is estimated to cost approximately $25,000,000. Congress through its Roads Committee has already authorized an appropriation at the rite of $10,000,000 a year for 2 years.

Mr. RICH. I might say to the committee that there are two valley roads which pretty well parallel this highway in these two parks. The first bill covering this parkway last year called for a road 800 feet wide. Mr. DEMARAY. The right-of-way, not the road.

Here are some pictures of sections of the road that are already under construction and have been completed.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Is this right-of-way furnished by the States? Mr. DEMARAY. It is furnished by the States. They are required to acquire the right-of-way and turn it over to the Federal Government free of charge.

HISTORIC SITES AND BUILDINGS

Mr. SCRUGHAM. The next item is for historic sites and buildings. Mr. DEMARAY. The justification for that is as follows:

The additional sum of $20,580 will be required for the employment of three historians, an associate architect, engineer, and attorney. In view of the varied and highly technical nature of the work, the proposed increase in the professional staff is required to carry on the survey. The additional sum of $5,420 will be required for office supplies and materials, travel expenses, transportation of things, printing, photographing, etc., and equipment incident to the work involved.

The act approved August 21, 1935 (49 Stat. 666-668), empowers the Secretary of the Interior, through the National Park Service, to carry out a broad program for the acquisition, development, and marking of historic and archeological sites, and authorizes the appropriation of funds for that purpose.

Widespread public attention has been focused on the problem of preservation of many nationally significant historic areas and buildings which are now neglected and deteriorating, and many demands are made for immediate action in connection with certain areas where historical and archeological remains of the utmost importance are in danger of destruction.

Under the provisions of the above-mentioned act and, as a part of the continuing work of the National Park Service, a Nation-wide survey of historic sites is under way for the purpose of determining what historical and archeological sites are of sufficient significance to warrant national recognition. It is important that this work be pushed as rapidly as possible. Several hundred sites have been listed and a considerable number investigated carefully in the field. The results of the survey are passed upon by the Advisory Board on National Parks and Monuments, Historic Sites and Buildings, appointed under the legislation.

It is anticipated that maintenance of many structures and sites will be handled through the cooperation of the Federal Government and the States, municipalities, and societies, as authorized by the legislation. It is expected also that fees will be charged to help defray maintenance, as is customary throughout the country in the administration of historic houses.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. You have an increase of $26,000 provided for. What is to be done with this?

Mr. DEMARAY. That is for the conduct of the historic sites survey as required by Public, 292, which is an undertaking of great magnitude. No comparable survey has ever been undertaken in the United States. It is to embrace sites that are interwoven with national history from prehistoric times to the present.

It is to have an adequate staff of professional historians and archeologists. Naturally, we will have to have some travel expense connected with it.

139751-37-pt. 1—36

Mr. O'NEAL. Under that act you are required to do this work are you?

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, sir. The Secretary of the Interior was directed through the National Parks Service to do these things.

A great number of bills have been introduced in Congress to preserve historic sites and buildings of the type that were mentioned a little while ago; and the Department is required in its report on these bills to say that these separate bills are not necessary because they could all be accomplished under the authority of this Historic Sites and Buildings Act. But no funds were provided, and therefore the purposes of these bills, of course, cannot be carried out.

The attitude of the Budget Bureau so far has been that the survey was not completed and it cannot be completed at the rate that we are going even in 2 fiscal years. After we get an adequate survey, we can begin to classify these areas and sites as to their relative importance. It is expected that this appropriation some time may carry large sums of money, not only to acquire and restore but to operate historic sites and buildings.

INVESTIGATION AND PURCHASE OF WATER RIGHTS

Mr. SCRUGHAM. The next item is the investigation and purchase of water rights.

Mr. DEMARAY. The justification for that is as follows:

There are evidences of title to the water being used in the various areas under the jurisdiction of the National Park Service in only a few instances; eur sequently, a constant danger of conflicting interests exists where parks or mor ments depend upon sources of water supply which are the same as those forma other interests. Where carly adjudications or permits to appropriat· have encumbered the full flow of streams, such vested rights must be recognized by the Government and either an alternate supply developed or resort be had to e indemnation or purchase.

A great deal of money has been expended in the past and is now being exp» 1, 1-1 in the construction of sewer and water-s apply lines, dams and cond at», swoman pools, water-storage tanks, fish hatcher,s, and other developments Wt. the development of the law on the subject of water rights and the esta1 - mert - f private uses, it is encambent upon the Gover: ment to take similar actin, a due to prior uncertainty as to status, it has been found in numerous instan that it will be necessary to acquire outstanding water rights to protect large investments already made.

A legal and engineering study, authorized by the Department of the Inter r Appropriation Act, fiscal year 1937, has been ur dertaken to determine whether such situations exist and to obtain data relating to streain course, flows, diveTKORL and distribution methods, amourts of loss, an ounts to be import ded, what? topography wil allow complète distribution or proper head without gong other than park property, rights of the Goverment ar i private u terests, propr methods of aequring rights, and eonscimmation of previous work with t'e Beq its tion of titles and possible right-of-way.

It is essential to cor fine the investigation already begun It is expected that the ir vest gat.on wil reveal mary it's: ees in which the title of De Teted States to water being used or necessary for future use in rate 1

I onur ents pairs feart to with ward cur text by private în terentu It is prope -1. to avoid costic of litigation in, the future quid anh sequent cor den ration or pure' que of water rights at erlar ced valuies, to provide for proper fings were sitt water are adeq ate for that purpose, or parehases where the reeds d the study now in progress Its that y cases, it is expected that it w¦he necessary to purchase the lar ds to wh..cl, reeded water rights may be apprter ant, or acro«S which the water post be cord jeted

In cases where ↑ „rekases ap; ear peerssary, it is essential that fir de be ava la' 'e to make the purei ases before the rat is pass it to other la ds, to be had fr exorbitant prices or used to the detriment of rational park adrar istration.

For

example, an additional supply of water is needed for the headquarters area in Death Valley National Monument. The only available supply in the vicinity is a spring flowing about 2 cubic feet per second, located on the property of Adolph Nevares in section 36, township 28 north, range 1 east, San Bernardino base and meridian. Since the water sinks into the ground before leaving the property, it will be necessary to purchase the land to secure the water. The water has rapidly increased in value and, in view of the extreme aridity of the region, it will probably increase to an inestimable amount. It is now held for a price of $50,000. Funds should be made available for its purchase before it is secured by private mining interests.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. There is no change in that?

Mr. DEMARAY. No. No change.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. I suppose that the important reason for that is the one that you have discussed under the previous items?

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes. The people who are coming in must be provided with water.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. We can appreciate the absolute necessity for providing water facilities for them.

Mr. DEMARAY. Some time there will have to be a substantial item for the purchase of water rights included in this appropriation. As a matter of fact, we have some rights now that ought to be acquired.

ACQUISITION OF LAND BY EXCHANGE OF SERVICE OR EQUIPMENT

Mr. DEMARAY. Mr. Chairman, there has recently been submitted by Mr. Taylor, our water-rights engineer, a suggestion of language that, if I may, I would like to present to you. He has suggested that we add:

Provided, That in lieu of purchase, such lands, interests in lands, and water rights may be acquired by the exchange of service or equipment, including the construction of water lines or other improvements on privately owned lands when considered in the best interests of the Government.

The DIRECTOR,

National Park Service, Washington, D. C.

JANUARY 26, 1937.

DEAR MR. DIRECTOR: For such consideration as you may choose to give it, I should like to present a suggestion in connection with the language used in the appropriation act appropriating funds for the acquisition of water rights.

Specifically, it occurs to me that there may be one or more occasions upon which water rights could be acquired by an exchange, either in the way of service rendered or equipment furnished, without outright purchase. It might be that we could acquire a water right by constructing a pipe line or doing something of a similar nature, and that the expenditure would be as small, if not smaller, than any actual purchase price.

If you believe that language providing for such exchanges could be inserted in the appropriation act, and if you feel that such a provision would be beneficial, your consideration of means by which this could be allowed is respectfully requested.

While I was in Washington in December 1935 and on December 16, under the supervision of Assistant Director Moskey, Mr. Barton and I drafted a proposed amendment to the National Park water rights appropriation bill, which we hesitated urging at that time because it is largely legislation. However, you may wish to consider that language this year, and it is quoted as follows:

"That the Secretary of the Interior be and is hereby authorized and directed to take such actions, by purchase, condemnation, or otherwise as in his discretion may be necessary, by virtue of State or Federal laws, to acquire and establish the rights of the United States to such quantities of water as is reasonably necessary for the use and convenience of the visiting public and the proper administration of any or all of the national parks and national monuments that are under the jurisdiction of the Department of the Interior."

Yours very truly,

JOSEPH E. TAYLOR, Attorney.