Mr. WEAVER. That would join to this point, the southern pur of the Blue Ridge Highway, and go on south. I am not family with that. I wish that I were, Congressman. I don't know the

details of the Natchez Trace.

Mr. LEAVY. Do you think that the public would object to paying a little fee for traveling this road for the Government to be rein bursed?

Mr. WEAVER. I cannot see why they would. But it is just the des that a toll road is always just a little bit unpleasant.

Mr. RICH. People are always looking for something for nothing Isn't that it?

Mr. WEAVER. That is about right.

But you see, this parkway will not only be a road.

It will be a

real park, with places along the highway where people may st
and see these great mountains and these primitive forests.
that will be for the benefit of eastern America.

All of

This thing was started by Dr. Work when he was Secretary d the Interior. He took it up. It was a frieze-a great area of prin tive forest. He wanted to just let it work itself out like a great laboratory of nature and let the people see what these forests an Of course, it is open to the public for recreational purposes.

Now, take the park itself. There may be revenues that will conte from that. There will be also 600 miles of trout streams in the Smoky Mountains National Park alone. And all that western comtry is beautifully located for recreational purposes. It will give a outlet to all of eastern America.

Mr. RICH. This parkway is about 800 feet wide, is it?

Mr. WEAVER. I think that the easements are 800 feet wide. Mr. RICH. What do you expect to do with the lands on either side of the highway? Do you expect to have any future developmen of it?

Mr. WEAVER. Just to keep them in their natural state of beauty and keep people from erecting all kinds of things, peanut stands. and everything along the highway.

Mr. RICH. It is not the purpose to try to have the Federal Government continue with the development of these lands?

Mr. WEAVER. Oh, no. I understand that they are to be kept as far as they can in their natural state. There is to be no development. Mr. RICH. Thank you.

Mr. WEAVER. I am glad that Mr. Demaray is here. He can explain in detail about these.

Mr. JOHNSON. You have made a very splendid and informative

statement.

Now, Mr. Demaray, we will hear from you.

Mr. DEMARAY. Mr. Chairman, I don't know whether I want to make a statement. Mr. Ford asked me to appear here to answer any questions that you might want to ask. But I heard his statement of the situation, and I believe that he has stated it correctly, that insofar as the authorization for the construction of the Natchez Trace Highway is concerned, it is exactly the same as for the Blue Ridge Parkway.

Mr. RICH. You were before the Public Lands Committee last year. were you not, when they had up the bill for the parkway between the

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noky Mountains National Park and the Shenandoah National irk?

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. RICH. At that time the discussion in the Public Lands Comittee was only for the part between those two national parks, was it >t?

Mr. DEMARAY. The hearings were before two separate committees. he parkway authorization for appropriations was before the Roads ɔmmittee.

Mr. RICH. That is true.

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, sir. The authorization.

Mr. RICH. So far as having the Federal Government adopt a highay between these two national parks is concerned, the only one at was discussed was the highway between the Smoky Mountains ational Park and the Shenandoah National Park, was it not? Mr. DEMARAY. Yes. But the only reason was that that discussion efore the Public Lands Committee was before Congressman Doughon's bill came up authorizing the Department of the Interior, rough the National Park Service, to assume jurisdiction of the nds. You have two separate things, Congressman Rich.

Mr. RICH. I know that there were two separate things, but this ne baffles me. I never knew this one was in the making.

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, sir. It has always been considered that the Natchez Trace, so far as the authorization for appropriation was oncerned, was covered before the Roads Committees of both the House and the Senate.

Mr. LEAVY. Mr. Demaray, these two parks are not now completed nits, are they?

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes.

Mr. LEAVY. These parks to which you propose to construct this highway?

Mr. DEMARAY. The Blue Ridge Parkway?

Mr. LEAVY. Yes.

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. LEAVY. That is all national park and Government operated? Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, sir. The Shenandoah National Park lands were donated by the State of Virginia and have been accepted by the Federal Government. The Shenandoah Park is now being operated is a national park.

The same is true down in the Smoky Mountains, although there is still some land yet to be acquired before that park is completely established. The total area to be acquired is 426,000 acres.

Mr. LEAVY. This $20,000,000 which was authorized, $10,000,000 for this year and $10,000,000 for next year, would not complete your highway construction, would it?

Mr. DEMARAY. No, sir.

Mr. LEAVY. Then, in order to have utility of use, would you have to have still further appropriations?

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes. But the same is true of the development of Federal aid to the general program.

Mr. LEAVY. I am not asking about other things. I just want to get the facts on this one.

Mr. DEMARAY. Of course, Mr. Congressman, the road bill eccs up for authorization every 2 years. It is perfectly understood befa the Roads Committee that this appropriation would not compe either one of the two parkways.

Mr. LEAVY. My own personal views are that the people of t East should have some of the park advantages that the people of t West have if it can possibly be done. I am extremely favorable to this.

Mr. RICH. Can you tell me what the total cost is going to be f these 950 miles when completed?

Mr. DEMARAY. This Natchez Trace was estimated to cost $ 000,000 and is 460 miles in length. The Blue Ridge Parkway he been estimated to cost from $27,000,000 to $30,000,000, and it is miles in length.

Mr. RICH. Is it possible by the act that was passed for you to metinue, through the Parkway Service, if it could get the funds, be ning at the Shenandoah National Park and going right up to Pits burgh, and then from Pittsburgh on up to the national park, we say, at Michigan, if they choose to construct it?

Mr. DEMARAY. The act itself, if I may read it, in section 5, saysMr. RICH. I am just thinking of your interpretation, in just a few words, without going into the act.

Mr. DEMARAY. Well, it says

A parkway to give access to national parks and national monuments or te become connecting sections of a national parkway plan over lands to which title has been transferred to the United States by the States or by priva individuals.

Mr. RICH. That is a pretty broad program.

Mr. DEMARAY. I assume that it is as broad

Mr. JOHNSON. It applies to sections where the land has actual been conveyed to the Federal Government from the States!

Mr. DEMARAY. That is right. The rights-of-way have to be cor veyed by the States or by private individuals.

Mr. LEAVY. Will this whole 950 miles, which is the sum total of the Natchez Trace and the Blue Ridge, be through parks, State or national; or would it be out in privately owned property?

Mr. DEMARAY. A great deal of it is privately owned.

Mr. LEAVY. How much of it would be highway constructed ac tually in the parks?

Mr. DEMARAY. In neither instance would the road be actually con structed inside a park. It will be a parkway connecting the south end of the Shenandoah National Park to the east end of the Great Smoky Mountains National Park. No part of the parkway is constructed within a national park.

Mr. LEAVY. That is, no part of either of these?

Mr. DEMARAY. No part of the Natchez Trace Parkway would be within a national reservation.

Mr. LEAVY. Then would the highway serve a general utility purpose, too, for the country through which it passes?

Mr. DEMARAY. It would serve a general utility purpose except for commercial traffic. Commercial traffic would be excluded from this road.

Mr. LEAVY. What I am trying to get at now, Mr. Demaray, is is: Does it pass through mostly uninhabited sections in all of these iles, or does it pass through cities and towns?

Mr. DEMARAY. It does not pass through any cities or any towns. he State would have great difficulty in acquiring the rights-ofay if it did. Therefore the parkway has been located to avoid ttled communities.

Mr. LEAVY. Have the States already acquired this 800-foot strip rough the country?

Mr. DEMARAY. They are acquiring it. In North Carolina and ennessee they are acquiring the sections that we are ready to start Construction on. We already have under contract about 160 miles North Carolina and Virginia.

The State of Mississippi has appropriated $200,000, and they have stimated that those funds will be obligated by the 30th of June; and within a very short time they expect to turn over the first rightof-way for the Natchez Trace Parkway in Mississippi.

That is a project known as project 3-M. We have been working on that particular one. It is ready, and the plans and specifications are ready to advertise tomorrow, and will be advertised as soon as the State notifies us that the right-of-way has been acquired.

Mr. LEAVY. You don't propose to build any highway unless the right-of-way is granted?

Mr. DEMARAY. That is correct.

Mr. LEAVY. Does this right-of-way go through a country that is now farmed and generally well inhabited?

Mr. DEMARAY. On the Blue Ridge Parkway it is on the mountaintops.

Mr. LEAVY. I understand.

Mr. DEMARAY. In general, on the Natchez Trace Parkway it follows through lands which are not very widely developed. They are lands which you might best describe as having been passed by by development. They are not suitable for development apparently. But they do have a considerable amount of beauty.

Mr. LEAVY. In the Natchez Trace Highway the total length given is 460 miles. How much of that 460 miles is in the park, or isn't there any in the park?

Mr. DEMARAY. None of it is in the park.

Mr. LEAVY. All of it is on the outside?

Mr. DEMARAY. All of it is outside the park.

Mr. LEAVY. Is the same thing true of the Blue Ridge Parkway?
Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, it is. No part of it is inside a park.

Mr. LEAVY. What I am trying to get at is, why don't the State authorities of these States which you cross, if they don't have to construct it, why don't they make a contribution toward the construction of it?

Mr. DEMARAY. They are making their contribution in the form of acquiring the right-of-way.

Mr. LEAVY. Of course, you just told us that the right-of-way has little real value.

Mr. DEMARAY. It has. However, when you come to acquire the lands, you find that it has a monetary value; that you cannot just acquire it for nothing.

In other words, the State is expending approximate's in the acquisition of three sections. Those three ext near Natchez of 12.5 miles. The second section is of tre north of Jackson, and the contiguous project north of Ja 22 miles additional. There are 47 miles in all.

Mr. LEAVY. I don't say that it is not a big project, b. pears to me that your service is going outside of the pars a that service which could well be done with the $125** came in the Agriculture bill for rural road assistance to St the States match the Federal funds.

Mr. DEMARAY. Well, Congressman, all that I can tell y is that here is an act of Congress where Congress has al appropriation. These projects were thoroughly di Congress.

Mr. LEAVY. That, of course, is still not responsive to rav It is putting the National Parks Service into highway ev which is outside of the national parks.

Mr. DEMARAY. It is connecting national parks or is prov torical areas between the parks. Those parkways have 2. educational and recreational value. The Natchez Tray Pa was justified on the basis that it was making available the main historical highways in the eastern United States, Mr. RICH. You were interested all the way through r ings in recommending that these highways be built treg. tional Parks Service, were you not!

Mr. DEMARAY. Well, Congressman Rich, naturally the Pars ice had nothing whatever to do with initiating either one of parkways. We would like to make that quite clear.

Mr. RICH. If I remember correctly, the National Paras were in the committee hearing recommending that those b Mr. DEMARAY. That was the Blue Ridge Parkway, w ready been started under a Public Works authority befor tional Parks Service ever became interested. We were assigned the project of developing the parkway, which was through Public Works; and the National Parks Service that allotment and was told to construct this parkway

Mr. RICH. It seems to me that some of the projects 1tional Park Service got into they had better get out of, as i will get in so deep. The construction of highways is set is to me clearly out of your sphere. You should have

Now, I want to ask this question: If the money is al committee for the construction of this Natchez Trace i do you know that if you construct, we will say, 27 m going to complete the donation of the land to contr it throughout! How do you know that!

Mr. DEMARAY. We will have to depend upon the res States in starting a project of this character.

I might also say that in every section that we are cue are arranging it so that it would become a useful roya start at some road connection and we buld to p nection; so that in the event that after that partic`ir » was constructed, if nothing else was ever done, tat I would not start at a point that could not be rea", si ar point where it would not serve anybody.

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