Mr. O'SULLIVAN. And if they store some of the summer flow in the upper lakes, and so forth, and release it in winter, it will come down to Grand Coulee and increase its firm power. Mr. RICH. Then it is going to be necessary to construct those dams in order to make Grand Coulee function efficiently when you have your 18 units in operation? Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No. Mr. RICH. I cannot understand you, then. Are you an engineer? Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I am a construction engineer. Mr. RICH. Then explain to me why it is necessary to have those additional dams above there if you are going to have water enough in the Greand Coulee to do the work that is contemplated in the layout as we now have it before us. Mr. O'SULLIVAN. No; I did not say this storage was necessary, Mr. Rich. If I did, it was a mistake. This storage is not needed by the Grand Coulee development. However, the possibility of such storage makes our project an interstate and international proposition. Under the Federal Water Power Act, if other interests develop storage upstream that will benefit Grand Coulee, Grand Coulee may be required to pay its proportionate share of the cost of such storage. Do I make it clear? Mr. RICH. No; you do not. Mr. LEAVY. What you mean is, if such development occurs up in Montana or in Idaho, it will supplement the power that you already have at Grand Coulee. Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes. Mr. LEAVY. And such supplementary power would have to be accounted for? Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir; it would. Mr. LEAVY. Such increased power as was available? Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes. Mr. LEAVY. But the project, in and of itself, independent of any development in other States, is a complete project? Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Oh, yes; it is a complete project without that storage. Mr. LEAVY. The development in Montana and Idaho would change the water situation as it is on the Pend Orielle River on Clarks Fork, the main tributary of the Columbia, which flows into Canada and back again into the United States. Mr. RICH. Maybe I can address my question to you, Mr. Leavy, instead of to the engineer, and get the information I desire. Mr. LEAVY. I think you misunderstood him. Mr. RICH. So that I can myself determine whether $186,000,000 is going to complete this project. I have seen so many of these Government projects get started for $186,000,000, and then when we get through we have $1,000,000,000 in it, instead of $186,000,000. When we get through with Grand Coulee and these coordinating things that go with it, it is going to run up into hundreds of millions of dollars above this item. I want to be sure that I can develop in my own mind that such is not going to be the case. Now, Mr. Leavy, let me ask you this question. Mr. LEAVY. Very well. Mr. RICH. If we develop this Grand Coulee project as is now outlined, why does the State of Washington in any way have to rely on the development in Idaho or Montana for the future development of Grand Coulee? Mr. LEAVY. It does not have to rely upon them in the slightest, and the Grand Coulee project is not a State project. Mr. RICH. Now, I am going back to Mr. O'Sullivan: Assuming that there is nothing in the State of Idaho or Montana, as stated by our colleague, Mr. Leavy, affecting this project, and the people of the State of Washington are so interested in its development, and also assuming that the constitutional amendment can be changed whereby your own people can go ahead for the sum of $186,000,000, and complete this project, so that there is no hold-up and so that it will be completed, and the people of Washington are going to receive the benefits of it, why would you not then develop it, if the Federal Government does not? Mr. O'SULLIVAN. In my judgment the project is too large for the State to handle. Mr. RICH. Could you not raise $186,000,000? Mr. RICH. Do you think that if you had the authority and your State legislature acted and your governor signed the bill, that you could not come down here to the R. F. C. and borrow $186,000,000 on the State of Washington's guarantee that it would be paid back? Mr. LEAVY. Do you not think that an answer to your question would be just a mere guess of the witness at best, if he even attempts to answer it, nothing more than an expression of opinion. Mr. JOHNSON. And, the question is unfair, because it says, "And the people of Washington are the ones who receive the benefit." If I know anything about this, the people, not only of Washington, Idaho, and Montana, but in fact of the whole United States will benefit. Mr. LEAVY. Yes; the whole United States will benefit. Mr. LAMBERTSON. They are not doing it because the Government has done it for the people of Tennessee and other places. Mr. HILL. Are you not coming to the Government right now and asking for flood control appropriations? Mr. RICH. Finish your statement. Mr. RICH. I have asked my question two or three times, and I have been waiting for an answer. Since Mr. Leavy made the statement that it did not interfere with the State of Idaho or Montana in the development of Grand Coulee in the State of Washington, if for any reason the Government discontinued the project, would not the State of Washington go ahead and complete this project for their own benefit so that it would not be lost to the people of the State of Washington as a whole? Mr. O'SULLIVAN. I cannot answer that; but in my judgment it would be very difficult for the State of Washington to finance this development, and likewise very difficult to change our constitution. Furthermore, I do not admit that this project does not affect the other States. Our project at Grand Coulee will stand upon its own feet without any storage in Idaho or Montana, but if storage there is created, then the owners of those stored waters in those States will be entitled to secure compensation from Grand Coulee. It is an interstate proposition, this dam. All of the people of the Northwest in buying this power will pay for the project. Mr. RICH. Maybe he can answer that question and put it in the record. (The following answer was placed in the record by Mr. O'Sullivan:) I believe that I have given the reasons why it would be very difficult for the State of Washington to complete the Grand Coulee development. Let me emphasize further that Grand Coulee is a national and regional undertaking that will confer major benefits on the entire Pacific Northwest as well as upon the entire country. The project will create a market for 200,000 carloads of the agricultural and manufactured products of the Nation. If reclamation were excluded, the Grand Coulee Dam could well be considered a great river and harbor project, the cost of which is not reimbursable under our laws or practice. Through the purchase of the Grand Coulee power the people of the Northwest will ultimately pay for the project, even though it confers outstanding national benefits. STATEMENT OF JAMES A. FORD, MANAGING SECRETARY OF THE SPOKANE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE, SPOKANE, WASH. Mr. SCRUGHAM. Mr. Ford. Mr. LEAVY. Now, Mr. Ford, you are managing secretary of the Spokane Chamber of Commerce? Mr. FORD. Yes, sir. Mr. LEAVY. You have had that position how many years? Mr. FORD. Twenty years. Mr. LEAVY. As managing secretary of the chamber of commerce, you are very familiar with the activities of every other chamber of commerce of Washington and that region called the Inland Empire? Mr. FORD. Yes, sir; in the Northwest as a whole. Mr. LEAVY. I want to ask you if your chamber of commerce and the chambers of commerce generally throughout the Northwest and the Inland Empire are unanimously supporting this Grand Coulee project and its ultimate completion? Mr. FORD. I do not think a single chamber of commerce could be found that is opposed to it. We have been in this fight of developing this project since 1918. It has really been the major activity of the Spokane Chamber of Commerce, and we have spent over $200,000 of businessmen's money voluntarily contributed to promote this project. In that time we have had the cooperation not merely of chambers of commerce within the State of Washington, but we have had the financial cooperation of chambers of commerce throughout the entire Northwest. Seattle has contributed money for this purpose, Tacoma has contributed money, Portland has contributed money, and other little chambers of commerce have contributed money toward helping the promotion of this project, and those that have not contributed money have cooperated in other ways. All of them have helped in an effort to secure the completion of this project. Mr. LEAVY. And the development of the project has been above the plane of partisan politics throughout? Mr. FORD. Yes; entirely so. It has never been made a partisan issue in our State at all. Mr. LEAVY. That is all I wanted to know. Mr. FORD. The State is united and absolutely unanimous in its desire to see it realized. Mr. LEAVY. Do any of you gentlemen want to ask Mr. Ford any questions? Mr. O'NEAL. The chambers of commerce of other States, outside of the State of Washington, have also been interested, have they not? Mr. FORD. Yes; they have. Mr. O'NEAL. You confined your statement to the fact that the interest was in the State of Washington. Mr. FORD. Yes; many other States are also interested in it. I should have said that if I did not. Mr. LEAVY. The Inland Empire includes other States as well as the State of Washington. Mr. FORD. I should have mentioned that Montana and Idaho chambers of commerce have cooperated in this as well. Mr. LAMBERTSON. What is their interest in the project? Mr. FORD. Their interest would be a little closer than chambers of commerce throughout the United States, because they are nearer the project and realize that a project of this kind will create an empire that will contribute wealth to every local community near there, to the entire Northwest, and will be a wealth producer for the Nation as a whole. They are a little closer to it than Washington, D. C., is but if Washington, D. C., realized its importance as fully as the Coeur d'Alene (Idaho) Chamber of Commerce, Washington (D. C.) Chamber would contribute money to promoting this project, because Washington, D. C., has a direct interest in its development, just as the entire country has an interest in it. Mr. LAMBERTSON. Why is it that these other companies would be satisfied to be distributing companies? I do not know whether you can answer it as well as the engineer. That is rather interesting to me. While I think the distributing company is important in this country, generally it is a public utility. Mr. FORD. I cannot answer for the power companies. There may be some power companies that do not view with joy seeing a big project developed by the Government, but there has never been a public utility in the Northwest that I know of that has thrown one single rock at this project or in any way impeded its development. On the contrary, the Washington Water Power Co., which, Judge Leavy has said is an Electric Bond & Share subsidiary in eastern Washington, contributes financially to the Spokane Chamber of Commerce budget, a large part of which is spent for the advancement of this project. We raised $15,000 in Spokane the other day for promoting the project. The Washington Water Power Co. contributed to that fund. An official of the Washington Water Power Co. sits on our executive board, and I have the full sanction of that executive board in every way to use every means for the development of this project. Mr. RICH. Is it the thought in your mind that you are going to make a second T. V. A. out on the Columbia River? Mr. FORD. I do not like to get into a discussion of my persona' views on that. However, I have very definite views on that. Mr. RICH. No; it might have been discussed in the chambers of commerce. Mr. FORD. Yes. Mr. RICH. You are interested in chambers of commerce from the State of Washington? Mr. FORD. Yes. Mr. RICH. If anything happened that the Federal Government would not go ahead with this project, and it has been pictured to us here that it is a self-liquidating project, and not only a self-liquidating project but a good financial project for one to go into Mr. FORD. That is right. Mr. RICH. With what you know of your laws, would not your State go ahead and take this project up and complete it, because it is pictured here as such a good project? Mr. FORD. Mr. Rich, if the Federal Government stops this project, the State of Washington ought to go on and build it. There are a lot of people in the State of Washington who would make every effort in their power to see that the State did do it. If the State of Washington were an independent nation, small as it is, there is no doubt this thing would be developed entirely by the State of Washington; but when we have difficulty in getting our appropriations from such a rich organization as the Federal Government, you can understand how we would have increased difficulty in selling the idea of increased taxation to the State of Washington in order to carry that additional burden. I do not believe it could be carried out. I am confident it could not. This project will be a financial contributor to the Government for all time. Mr. RICH. Then, if it is such a good project, if you wanted to continue on with that project, the State of Washington would have no difficulty in raising the money to complete it? Mr. FORD. It would have difficulty, but a lot of us would try to do It should be done, even if it had to be paid for by the State of Washington alone. it. MONDAY, APRIL 12, 1937. YAKIMA PROJECT, ROZA DIVISION STATEMENT OF E. F. BLAINE, GRAND VIEW, WASH. Mr. LEAVY. Now, Mr. Blaine, if you will, proceed with your statement. Mr. BLAINE. I am appearing in the interest of the Roza project. in the State of Washington, officially known as the Yakima-Benton unit of the Yakima project. This is the last unit of the Yakima project to be completed. It is already under the course of construction; $3,500,000 has been allotted so far for the work. PRESENT STATE OF COMPLETION OF WORK The work so far done consists of some tunnels through the points. of mountains, siphon line under the Yakima River, and one other tunnel further fown. The Budget only provides for $1,500,000 to continue this work. If this $1,500,000 is allowed, it will be spent during the coming year, largely upon heavy construction work, and it would not put a great many men to work. If $3,000,000 should be allotted, part of that money could be used below what is known as Rattlesnake Mountains in building laterals, drops, and measuring boxes, and things like that, which would involve a large amount of labor. It is contended by some people that if you build laterals at the present time that they will fill up, but I know from long experience in irrigation work that if the dirt from those laterals is thrown to the east, ditches will not fill |