in construction planning and engineering work before the Government put in any actual construction work.

Mr. LEAVY. Mr. Woods, when was this project first undertaken out there?

Mr. WOODS. It began in October 1933, 4 years ago.

Mr. LEAVY. I mean on the project.

Mr. WOODS. As to the project, it was first announced in July 1918. Mr. LEAVY. Nearly 20 years ago.

Mr. WOODS. Yes, sir. Our organization, the Columbia River Development League, which was a public-benefit organization made up of granges, community clubs, land owners' associations, local chambers of commerce, and so forth, all joined together to see that it was properly handled. Our resources have been so tremendously wasted, especially in the matter of timber, that we wanted to see the thing properly carried through.

I think you should understand, too, that this Columbia River, or the main body of water, comes down in the summer time, so that we wil get our principal power in summer when we need it most. Later on we will have it for irrigation. On the west side of the Cascades, the main rains are in the winter, so that the two dovetail together as a power proposition.

I want to emphasize my statement that this is a program to extend over the next 25 or 50 years. It will be handled unit by unit. It will not bring all of this land into irrigation at once. We do not want that.

We do not want to bring it in except as the land is needed.

This Columbia River is the wildest big stream in the civilized world. Only the Congo and the Maranon tributary of the Amazon run more power than it does. It comes through granite walls, and falls, 1,300 feet from the point it enters the State of Washington to where it joins the sea.

Mr. LEAVY. That is a distance of about 750 miles.

Mr. WOODS. Yes, sir; a distance of approximately 750 miles.

As I have said, an expenditure of $125,000,000 will start this project on its way. I want to emphasize that once again. I am going to use as an example the Wenatchee High Line Canal in our State. The builders of that canal tell me that the cost of the High Line was $180,000, but that it built itself in about 5 years into a $1,000,000 plant; that it added or built up from $25,000,000 to $50,000,000 in community values, and that they have 30,000 acres of land here in the north which paid out in freight alone, on outgoing freights, $150,000,000 in 15 years. Now, please get that right; that represents $5,000 per acre in freights alone in 15 years. This High Line Canal covers about 13,000 acres; so that figures about $65,000,000 in freight from this High Line Canal in that 15 years.

Now, I want to tell you that this job is now half completed, and it is just a question of whether, or not, you will leave out there another Muscle Shoals, such as we had here for years, or whether you are going ahead with the greatest self-liquidating project in the United

States.

I want to impress upon you the fact that the people of the State of Washington know about this entire proposition, and are overwhelmingly in favor of seeing it built.

Mr. RICH. Can you give us your reasons for stating that this is going to be a self-liquidating project?

Mr. LEAVY. The next witness can cover that phase of it more completely.

Mr. RICH. I will be glad to get the facts, if you can give them. Mr. Woods. The first proposition is as to the power to be sold. and the second proposition is that as the program goes on, unit by unit, it will be paying for itself. There will be irrigation in the future, but not for some years.

Mr. RICH. I want something specific on that subject. It is easy to make a general statement, but when you take the total cost of this project, let us know where you will get the money, and how will it become a self-liquidating project? Can you be a little more specific in your statement?

Mr. Woods. As to power, we are already short of power out there this year. The smelters in Montana were shut down this winter for lack of power, and their superannuated steam plants on the sound were running this winter. The demand for power is increasing steadily right along. Furthermore, the heating proposition is a line that has hardly been touched.

Mr. O'NEAL. Has anybody ever prepared a statement that would answer Mr. Rich's question? We want to know how much it will cost to complete the project, and we should have a statement showing how many power users there will probably be, the amount of power they will consume, how many irrigated farms there will be, and what part of the load they will carry. We would like to have a breakdown of the whole proposition. That is the kind of statement Mr. Rich is asking for.

Mr. LEAVY. I think, in answer to that question, we could prepare a statement showing the anticipated consumption of power. No one could ever say for a certainty just what it would be.

Mr. O'NEAL. Suppose you have such a statement prepared.

Mr. LEAVY. We can anticipate the consumption by looking at the past history of it. In the past, power consumption has increased by something like 9 percent.

Mr. WOODS. By 91⁄21⁄2 percent.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Do you know what is the total it will cost to complete the project.

Mr. WOODS. The dam is half built.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. From the beginning right through. I mean the entire project. What will be the cost of the entire project?

Mr. Woods. Do you mean including irrigation?

Mr. FITZPATRICK. I mean building the dam so it can be used for the generation of electric power, for irrigation, or whatever it may be. Mr. Woods. It is approximately half constructed.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. What will be the amount of cost for the entire project?

Mr. Woods. $118,000,000 will pay the cost of the dam, and there will be $7,000,000 or $8,000,000 on top of that for the power development, which will start the project as a self-liquidating one with 300,000 horsepower in operation.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. How much has been spent already? I have asked a simple question. I want to know the total amount of money that will be required to construct the project, and start it into operation.

Mr. WOODS. There has been expended $55,000,000, and there is already allotted $63,000,000.

Mr. LEAVY. With the amount that is in the Budget.

Mr. Woods. Yes, sir.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Taking into consideration what has been spent, how much more will be required?

Mr. WOODS. About $68,000,000.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. What will that total?

Mr. PAGE. The total cost of the dam, without the power plant, will be $118,000,000, and $7,000,000 or $8,000,000 more will be required for the power plant to start self liquidation.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. What will the population have to be in that part of the country to make this a self-liquidating plant of the kind you figure it will be?

Mr. PAGE. We have never figured it on that basis.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. We should have some definite information on that.

Mr. PAGE. You must also take into account the possible mineral extraction and things of that sort which are not based upon popula tion.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. The reason I asked that question was this: I heard the argument and the picture that was drawn of the number of people that would settle in that part of the country. They drew a beautiful picture. They said there would be a million people going there because of this improvement. I do not know what authority they had for drawing such a beautiful picture. That was the prin cipal issue discussed on the floor of the House—that is, that it would be necessary to have a million people go into that part of the country to consume the power in order to make it a self-liquidating project.

Mr. WOODS. I think I can answer that by referring to the Army engineers' report. They have projected it for the future, and they say in their prospectus that they allow 15 years to sell this power, and yet, at the very low figure of 2 mills per kilowatt-hour for prime power, and one-half a mill for secondary power, or summer power, on that basis, the entire proposition will pay itself out in 40 years, and will allow $15,000,000 in net profit to the Government each year thereafter.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Does that mean the production and distribution of power?

Mr. WOODS. Yes, sir; that includes everything. Every charge they have is covered, including interest. I want to call attention to some big projects in the West that have been rather surprising. Forty years was allowed for the return of the cost of bridges in San Fran cisco, but the first bridge opened has shown it will be paid for in just about 17 years.

Regarding Mr. Rich's inquiry on the power market in the Northwest, (1) we have the same general industrial and domestic uses as you have over the United States.

(2) We have in addition a steadily increasing demand as evidenced by the reports over the United States and a still greater increased demand in the Pacific Northwest. It is doubling every 8%1⁄2 years. (3) In addition to the above I would call attention to the average family demand throughout the United States which is 606 kilowatts But in cities like Winnipeg, Toronto, and Tacoma where

per annum.

the rates are low the demand goes up to 4,300 to 4,700 kilowatts per family or seven to eight times as great. Grand Coulee will deliver power as low as the lowest.

(4) Still, in addition to all of the above, our irrigated sections use tremendous amounts of power. We now have thousands of pumps working in our Northwest section raising 200, 300, 375, and on up to 525 feet. This is for irrigation at the present high rate of $35 per horsepower for the season of 5 months. The United States Army engineers say secondary power from Grand Coulee for irrigation can be delivered at the bus bar for $3.25 or to the consumer within 170 miles at $6.50 for the irrigation season. This simply means a tremendous increase in demand. Out in our section they are using pumps now in preference to long irrigation ditches.

(5) When a family is placed on the land by means of these pumps, a second family goes into the project towns and villages and a third into the metropolitan centers. These are Government statistics on irrigation. That means that all these people must be furnished with power for general purposes as well as for irrigation.

(6) The continual increase in the acreage of irrigation on the Grand Coulee project which will come unit by unit, will create its own demand for power.

(7) In addition to all of the above, will be the demand for electrometallurgical processes. Ross K. Tiffany, who had charge of a number of the Government projects in the Yakima Valley, and who is now head of the Washington State Planning Council, says that 500,000 horsepower from Grand Coulee will be required for these metallurgical processes alone during the next few years. The great Trail Smelter just across the Canadian line is an example of what is due on the American side.

(8) Still in addition to all of the above extraordinary uses comes the complete success of electrical heating at Mason City at the dam site. This town of 3,000 is virtually without a chimney. Electricity is used for cooking, lighting, heating, hot water, and scores of other purposes and the charges for all these uses run from $1.58 in July per average family to $5 in March, with a high of $10 in January. Juan Hargroves, the architect who put this system in and made a complete check of every house, states that with Grand Coulee power homes may be heated practicably at $50 to $60 per year for the average home.

Of course, the use of heat will be to utilize the surplus power, for it is recognized generally that there are more important uses for electricity. It is like using fish for fertilizer.

Where there is a big supply of electricity, it is nevertheless now a success and would require 12 to 16 kilowatts per home in the hitch-up. By the demonstration in that town there have been brought forth some remarkable facts. One is that the amount of power used is only 17%1⁄2 percent of the connected load in the wintertime and very much less in the summertime.

Now in conclusion on this comment on no market for power, we heard that 12 and 15 years ago. But in spite of that there has been a million horsepower of extra installed electricity put in out there in the Northwest in that time, enough to have put this key dam on its way years ago. After 15 years of study on this question, together with the statements of unbiased engineers I am convinced that it is just pure argument that cannot stand up.

139751-37-pt. 2- -8

We do not have to doubt the question of a power market for this question has been passed upon by engineers the greatest and most competent in the world. One of the most comprehensive reports ever gotten out was prepared by United States Army engineers, together with reclamation engineers and rechecked by our engineers in the Northwest and by our engineers of the State of Washington. Mr. LEAVY. I think our next witness will be able to cover the figures that have been requested.

I now present Mr. O'Sullivan.

STATEMENT OF JAMES O'SULLIVAN, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY OF THE COLUMBIA BASIN COMMISSION, SPOKANE, WASH.

Mr. LEAVY. Mr. O'Sullivan, I think I will ask you a few questions that may provoke questions from other members of the committee, and it may be that we can expedite the matter a little more in that way. Then, after you have been interrogated, if you have a general statement to make, you may submit it.

Now, as I understand it, your connection with the Grand Coulee Dam is purely in an official capacity, as an employee of the State of Washington.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. LEAVY. You are the executive secretary of the Columbia Basin Commission.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. LEAVY. That is a State set-up.

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. LEAVY. And the State of Washington has spent in this work, or in connection with this project, approximately how much money? Mr. O'SULLIVAN. About $2,000,000.

Mr. LEAVY. This project has been checked and examined by engineers of national reputation?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. Since 1918, by numerous engineers and economists, including those of the corps of engineers, United States War Department and Bureau of Reclamation.

Mr. LEAVY. Can you state briefly what type of stream the Columbia River is, stating the distance it flows through the State of Washington?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. The Columbia River enters the State of Washington at its northeast corner, at an elevation of 1,300 feet above sea-level, and flows for 750 miles through the State and along its southern border to the sea. It has a drop of 1,300 feet in that dis

tance.

Mr. LEAVY. How does that compare with other rivers in continental United States in the matter of the water run-off?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. It is second only to the Mississippi River in volume of flow.

Mr. LEAVY. The water flows down the river uniformly throughout the year?

Mr. O'SULLIVAN. Yes, sir. Its flow during the seasons is steady because it is fed by a glacial field of more than 1,000 square miles; the largest on the North or South American Continents outside of the Arctics.

Mr. LEAVY. What is the condition of the river with reference to being clear or as to carrying sediment?