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Mr. Johnson of Oklahoma. We shall be glad to hear Mr. Gekrmam at this time.

Mr. Gehrmann. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I just want to corroborate what my two colleagues have said.

Wisconsin was one of the first States, as soon as the legislature met. to pass a resolution asking us to appropriate the full amount: and t>j also made provision to meet their share, 50 percent of the appropration, that they expect to get.

I know, for instance, in my district, that a number of high schools, under the P. W. A. program, have added to their buildings with s view of establishing agricultural courses that they had never haii there before.

My district is made up largely of smaller communities, with onk one or two larger cities. Now they have vocational educational facilities in the larger centers only. But these smaller towns, of 6 op or 10 thousand, are adding to their facilities with the expectation of getting some help from the Federal Government. And the State B ready to meet not only its share of whatever we will get out of this $14,000,000 appropriation, but I know that our State is ready toge much further than that, because we have an adequate system oi taxation, and an income tax that raises revenue for education.

I do hope the committee will recommend the full amount as authorized last year in the George-Deen Act.

Mr. Fuller. How does your delegation stand as a unit?

Mr. Gehrmann. As far as I know, after polling them, our delegation is 100 percent in favor of the full authorization of last year.

Thank you, gentlemen, for this opportunity.


Mr. Johnson of Oklahoma. We shall be glad to hear from Mr. Nelson of Missouri at this time.

Mr. Nelson. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, I ar« whole-heartedly in favor of this proposition. I might say first of all that I spent 10 years in agricultural work in my home State before coming to Congress.

Some comparison has been made between the relative values of the C. C. C. camp work and vocational agricidture.

As I listened to that, I thought of the story that is told of the rival hatters who presented hats to President Lincoln, each waiting to hear the President's comment. He looked the hats over carefully a0" remarked. "They mutually excel each other." [Laughter.]

I feel that way about these two great projects. I think it is tbebfff work that we are doing at this time; vocational agriculture and the work of the C. C. C. camps.

Incidentally, I endorse what has been said as to the advisability?' carrying on more educational work in the C. C. C. camps. 1 ^yi.m Columbia, Mo., the seat of the college of agriculture and the University of Missouri. You may be interested in knowing that one of tw greatest presidents the University of Missouri ever had was vocationally trained. I refer to Walter Williams, the founder of the first school ot journalism in the world, and who later became, as I say, president of the university, and whose only training consisted of an eighth-grade education and what he got out of a printing office.

Incidentally, I have in my district, two institutions that have about the same enrollment. One of them is in Columbia, my home town, the University of Missouri. The other is in Jefferson City, the State capital, which I have the honor to represent, and is the Missouri State penitentiary. They have about the same enrollment. They have increased their enrollment at just about the same rate. There is not so much difference in the ages of the men in the penitentiary and the students in the University of Missouri—less than 10 years.

My thought is that if more of those men in the State penitentiary had been given vocational educational advantages, fitting them for a job, there would be fewer of them in the penitentiary.

That is one thing we must think about. If we are going to create a job, then we want to have a man prepared to take and hold it. Technological unemployment is a big problem that must be considered at this time.

Gentlemen, I realize that I must be very brief in my remarks. My

?rincipal interest, I may say, is in the agricultural end of this work, know what it has meant to the youth of Missouri. It has been my pleasure to know, and I know them today, more than half the teachers of vocational agriculture in my State. They are a wonderfully welltrained group of men, whose hearts are in their work.

May I say in defense of vocational agriculture training, and I will include all vocational education, I like it, because we get away from needless frills and furbelows too often, I regret, found in too much higher education of today.

There is a story told about Uncle Joe Cannon. Those of us who served with Uncle Joe in the House know how much good common sense he had. Once he was asked, "What do you think of a college education?" and Uncle Joe is said to have replied, "Well, I don't r think a college education can do much harm to a man of average intelligence." [Laughter.]

I sometimes think that some day Congress may be asked to appropriate money to set up along side of some universities of learning— not the University of Missouri, however—universities of "unlearning", so that graduates can go back and get more of the practical. That is what is given in vocational training.


Mr. Johnson of Oklahoma. We shall be glad to hear you at this time, Hon. Fred Vinson of Kentucky, a member of the committee on ways and means.

Mr. Vinson. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I want to express my appreciation of the opportunity to appear before you.

I do not know that it is ever a good thing to put one appropriation up against another appropriation; or to compare the benefits that (low from the moneys expended along one line with those from the moneys expended along other lines. Mention was made about moneys spent for battleships. I just want to say hero that as one Member of Congress I want battleships. I want an army and a navy to protect the °oys and girls whom we seek to benefit in this proposed appropriation.

It was my pleasure and honor to serve upon the Appropriations Committee several years ago. I know of your problems and your responsibility. And I also know the duty that you have to the House.

It is easy for a member of one subcommittee to say that some other subcommittee ought to have made savings. I do not recall the total of your bill last year, but I know in that bill and in every approprittion bill you have unexpended balances in certain items and it is no! a difficult matter ordinarily to pick up money here and there from these unexpended balances.

I am thoroughly familiar with the budget system. I am in accord with the budget system. But I am nonplussed, I am puzzled to know why the Budget does not have familiarity with the temperature, with the sentiment in the House of Representatives and in the Senate. and fails to recognize the will of the legislative body, with respect to this particular item. They ought to know the condition that obtains today so far as sentiment for this work is concerned.

Those of us who were here in 1932 recall the storm thaj; came out of the four corners of this country when the special economy committee tentatively dropped this item, and tentatively recommended its repeal Why, I have never seen such a storm of protest. And that storm of protest in respect of this particular item injured the work of that committee in other and larger items of economy.

I do not know whether the gentleman who now heads the Budget was the Director of the Budget at that time. But he ought to kno* the attitude of the Congress of the United States toward this item.

It is needless for me to direct my remarks toward the benefits accruing from this activity. No one will testify against the benefits that come from this character of work.

I want to make this suggestion to the subcommittee, knowing the way in which you work and the connection which you have with the Budget. It may be that the delay in the report of the committee that was appointed to survey this subject gave the Director of the Budget cause to disregard the voice of the legislative body. Congress has spoken on this item. Not very long ago Congress authorized this expenditure of $14,000,000. But it may be that they wanted to get the report before providing an additional expenditure of some ten of eleven million dollars.

It seems to me this subcommittee is in a good position to earn the message to the Budget of the intense interest in this item and then the committee may receive a supplemental estimate.

If you cannot do that, I hope you can pick up the money elsewhere, even if it means the curtailment of a few million dollars in this project or that project. It may be money well spent even for those projects But if you cannot do that, as Members of this House, obeying our legislative mandates, I think you ought to recommend this appropriation.

You gentlemen are well informed. Self-preservation is the first law of nature. If you do not recommend it, my only fear is that you members of the Appropriations Committee may get killed in the rush when the amendment is offered on the floor of the House.

I thank you.


Mr. Johnson of Oklahoma. Mr. Martin of Colorado desires to make & very brief statement to the committee.

Mr. Martin. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I should like to present,. for the record and for the information of the committee, a telegram from W. J. England, vocational supervisor in my home city of Pueblo,. Colo.

The telegram reads as follows:

Hon. J. A. Martin,

House Office Building, Washington, D. C: Advised that House subcommittee will consider vocational appropriations authorized by George-Deen Act Friday. It would be helpful it you could attend committee meeting and request full allotment authorized by George-Deen Act. Extension of vocational training service sorely needed in this district. Best personal regards.

W. J. England;


Mr. Scrugham. We shall be glad to hear Mr. Schneider of Wisconsin at this time.

Mr. Schneider. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, I want to state to the committee that the Wisconsin State Federation of Labor is in favor of the $14,000,000 appropriation for vocational education. This telegram comes from the president of the Wisconsin State Federation of Labor, Mr. Henry Ohl, Jr. Mr. Ohl is a member of the Federal Board for Vocational Education, and has been one of the champions of vocational education for a great many years.

I also have a telegram from Mr. Glen T. Fiedler, president of the Wisconsin Vocational Education Association, Green Bay, Wis., urging the increase of the appropriation.

I also have a letter here from H. O. Eiken, director of the Green Bay Vocational School, Green Bay,. Wis., in which he sets forth his position; and, if I may, I will read just a paragraph or two of that letter, in which he explains the need for additional funds to meet the necessities of vocational education in Wisconsin. He states:

The trend in demand for increased service on the part of the vocational school which began during the depression has not subsided but rather has been intensified since the approach to normal conditions. Never lias the local school been so handicapped by budgetary restrictions as it has been during the past 2 or 3 years and that it will be in the years to come. Men and women returning to employment are demanding in ever increasing numbers extension training to make themselves more competent on the job. Due to employers and industry raising the entrance age requirements for initial employment, we are being called upon by ever increasing numbers of youths in the 18 to 25 age group for preemployment training, vocational and trade training, and adjustment service. This is also true of those who are graduating from high school and find it inconvenient to continue their education in institutions of higher learning. They are coming to us for training and service designed to orient themselves into the so-called service and distributive occupations. These are all problems with which we are concerned and activities in which we should increase our service and effectiveness. Unquestionably, our opportunitity to serve this group is not only going to be limited but curtailed in these fields unless the Federal appropriation is increased.

I am sure, speaking for the local school administration and board, that we could use the entire amount that would be available to us should the original appropriation of some 14 million dollars be made. Not only is this necessary, but \ in Wisconsin are attempting to secure an additional appropriation from the State in order to carry on our ever expanding activities which are necessitated by tbc spontaneous requests of the youths and adults in our community.

I call attention also to the great usefulness of vocational training to our agricultural population. It is highly desirable that the benefits of vocational education should be extended to an increasing number of men and women in the ruri areas. Farm leaders have recognized the value of vocational education in apicultural subjects and other activities. I quote the following from a statement by Mr. L. J. Taber, master of the National Grange:

"We look upon the outlay for vocational education as an investment that pa.'; good dividends of many kinds. The form of education that these funds iaair possible is of the most practical nature, giving us better farmers and home makers, while increasing efficiency in industrial pursuits. It is the kind of educ&tioa that helps people to earn a livelihood and to make them self-sustaining. Not only the young are benefited by the vocational training they receive under tte system, but all over the country adults attending night classes likewise receive instruction."

May I state further, Mr. Chairman, that because of the recovery of industry and due to the shortage of trained men who were formerly employed, having left industry, perhaps passed away, or left (if community, has created vacancies that must be filled by workers without training. These latter men are seeking instruction and assistance from the vocational schools to equip them to fill the places that are so essential.

Therefore may I not suggest and recommend to the committee an increase to the $14,000,000 as authorized in the Deen bill? I think it is highly essential and is expected.

It seems rather inconsistent, at least to me, that we in Congress should pass an enabling Act in one year, authorizing certain definite appropriations, and when that time arrives we fail to make the appropriation.

I mentioned that particularly because of the high hopes that we have left in the heart and mind of those people who are interested in vocational education. There should be opportunity for extending tE; needed instruction to our people.

I think the appropriation should be increased materially over the recommendations of the Bureau of the Budget.

Mr. Scrugham. Thank you, Mr. Schneider.


Mr. Scrugham. We shall be glad to hear Mr. Hope of Kansas.

Mr. Hope. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee:

I am very glad to appear here today to urge that the full amount of this appropriation as authorized by the George-Deen bill be made available, or at least as much as is indicated can be used in this year.

I concur in what Mr. Schneider says with reference to the pohcy which has been determined upon by Congress. That pohcy has been settled. "We have authorized an appropriation of 14 millions of dollars. It seems to me inconsistent with that policy, if we do not appropriate all of that amount which can be used by the States during the next fiscal year.

I am very much in favor of this type of education. It is very practical. I think it is the. right type of education. ParticuliirJj' speak of vocational agriculture. It is the type of education in o^

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