Mr. RICH. Is all the money that is appropriated for Alaska spent every year? Do you ever have any left over?

Mr. DIMOND. Well, I cannot answer that question. I never heard of any being left over. We are usually short of funds.

Mr. RICH. Is it not in Alaska just like in all of the other Territories; they ask for all they can get, and do everything they can to spend it? Mr. DIMOND. No, sir; we ask for just a fraction of what we need and want, and we are always short of funds. It is a false idea of economy on the part of the Government that leads to making such limited appropriations. If a few thousand dollars extra is appropriated for this Reindeer Service it will be a true economy, and by spending more money now we shall not have to spend so much in the future.

CONSTRUCTION AND MAINTENANCE of roads, bridges, and trails of ALASKA

Now, coming down to page 497 of the bill, the item for the repair, construction, and the maintenance of roads, tramways, ferries, bridges, and trails, in the Territory of Alaska, the estimate is $535,000. That estimate is not enough, as Mr. Gordon has said, to take care of the maintenance. The appropriation should be considerably larger than that to take care of new construction as well.

Since the emergency funds under the P. W. A., and other emergency funds, have been appropriated, the Bureau of the Budget's theory is that it is not necessary to give more than enough for maintenance, for the money necessary for construction may be obtained from the emergency funds.

Except for 1933 and 1934, when we received a substantial grant of about $1,450,000, from P. W. A. funds for road building in Alaska, and, except for the funds allotted for road building in the AnchorageMatanuska Valley region, we received little, if any, money from emergency funds for road construction in Alaska. In some sections, we have not been able to proceed with our road program in Alaska at all, and it is just at a stand still.

Now, considering its resources, and considering the advisability from every standpoint that we increase its population and make it possible for people to get into the Territory and settle there, it would be economy to make a larger appropriation for roads in Alaska, as well as for air fields.

The Department's estimate for the fiscal year 1938 for roads and air fields was $1,600,000. The whole amount should have been passed by the Bureau of the Budget and included in the Budget estimates, but that was not done, though I urged it before the officials of the Budget.

There is a real need for extension of the road system, and for the construction of air fields in Alaska if we are going to make any progres in the Territory, or if we are going to do what ought to be done in the Territory to realize its possibilities. Two classes of public works are immediately needed now, air fields and roads, and the appropriation of money to be expended on air fields and roads would be of inestimable value not only to the people of Alaska, but also to the people " of the United States as a whole.

This item of $535,000 for roads ought to be increased at least to $1,000,000, so as to give some new road construction.

You may think we are asking for an unconscionable sum beyond that which should be spent in the territory for roads, but it is really insignificant, compared to the amount that has been spent by the Federal Government on roads in the States, the Federal highways system. We have an appropriation almost every year of $100,000,000 to $200,000,000 for roads in the States, and we in Alaska do not get a cent of it. The Federal Government is doing for the States what it has refused to do for Alaska.

Mr. O'NEAL. Where are the roads you speak of when you suggest that more money should be appropriated?

Mr. DIMOND. The roads are not shown on this map. There is a road existing at present from Fairbanks up here (indicating), and this red line ought to be extended up here to Circle.

Mr. O'NEAL. Is that a railroad?

Mr. DIMOND. No. This is a highway. This red line is a highway, and it extends from Valdez on the coast as far as Circle on the Yukon River.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Is that paved road?

Mr. DIMOND. No, it is what is called a coach road. It is a gravelsurfaced road. We have not a mile of paved road in Alaska outside of the incorporated cities, and very few miles of paved road there. Mr. RICH. It is all gravel?

Mr. DIMOND. Yes.

Mr. RICH. What does it cost per mile to construct those highways?

Mr. DIMOND. I think there has been expended on this type of road from $6,000 to $12,000 a mile. The paved road would cost $40,000 to $50,000 a mile.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. How far is it to Fairbanks from the coast?

Mr. DIMOND. Three hundred and seventy-one miles from Valdez to Fairbanks, and from there 162 miles further to Circle.

Mr. O'NEAL. About how many people live at Circle?

Mr. DIMOND. Only a few hundred. Some natives live there, but only a few white people. This road gives access to the Yukon River. The Yukon River is very large and is, of course, navigable.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Are there no highways in that area. Mr. DIMOND. There are some highways in Alaska, but highways are badly needed. The highways that are in existence are very limited, indeed. We need highways in this region, and, as a matter of fact, we need highways all over Alaska, and also air fields. For example, there is room for a lot of people in the farming region on the Kenai Peninsula. The only reason that we have not a substantial permanent population there now is because it would take about $1,000,000 to complete the road up from Homer to Kenai and thence to Kenai Lake where connection would be made with the road which is now being completed to Seward. Everywhere in Alaska the demand and the need is for roads.

Mr. JOHNSON. Who owns that land?

Mr. DIMOND. The Government owns it. The Government owns more than 99.8 percent of the land in Alaska. Mr. JOHNSON. Is it open for homesteads?

Mr. DIMOND. Yes, sir.

Mr. JOHNSON. How large is a homestead?

Mr. DIMOND. One hundred and sixty acres. The climate is favorable, and the land is fertile, but until the road is built, the settlers cannot get in there, and the parents will not go there with their children whom they want to send to school unless they have roads. If roads are built, they can help themselves and be quite contented. Mr. FITZPATRICK. How many days during the year do they produce crops in that section?

Mr. DIMOND. In the Matanuska Valley, the frost-to-frost season, over a period of years, has been 132 days. Of course, Alaska is so large that the seasons vary in different parts of it.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. But I mean in the section where they attempted to settle a couple of years ago.

Mr. DIMOND. The average frost season there, from the records over a period of years, is 132 days. The longest season they have experienced was in 1926, when it was 160-some days between the last frost in the spring and the first in the fall; and, incidentally, the frost-tofrost season in that region is longer than the frost-to-frost season in some parts of North Dakota.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. After the frost season is over, how long is it before they can use the ground? And how many days during the year can they use it?

Mr. DIMOND. The frost is in the ground from October to April. The ground is usually frozen to some extent from the latter part of October until the middle of April, or the first part of May.

Mr. JOHNSON. Is there not considerable difference in that respect between the seasons down on the coast and back in the interior? Mr. DIMOND. Just as much difference as between Oklahoma and Maine, or more. There is a vast difference between the seasons on the coast, which is warmed by the Gulf Stream, and the interior part of Alaska.

Mr. JOHNSON. Where do you live?
Mr. DIMOND. Valdez.

ALASKA RAILROAD

There is one other thing that I wish to talk about, and that is the Alaska Railroad. I realize the limitations on these gentlemen, once the Bureau of the Budget has passed upon an item. But this $200,000 that is carried in the bill for capital expenditure on the Alaska Railroad is entirely inadequate. Colonel Olsen has told you the amount that will be necessary for capital expenditures over a period of 4 years in order to do the job that ought to be done, something in excess of $2,000,000-I think he mentioned $2,150,000.

I am not an engineer, and I have never worked on the railroad, but I have talked with literally hundreds of men who are employed on the Alaska Railroad, and they are very apprehensive about the condition of the road, particularly of the bridges and trestles which were built of timber in the early days of the construction of the railroad, and the life of which is now practically exhausted. Unless these structures are replaced and replaced without delay, there is, in my judgment and in the judgment of the men who have to travel over the railroad, grave danger that there will be some terrible accident in which someone may be killed.

Now, if the whole of this money, $2,150,000, were appropriated now, to remain available until expended, that would be the scientific way to handle it, to undertake the replacement of these old temporary structures and the rehabilitation of the railroad just as fast as it could be done economically. It is not only the Knik River Bridge and the Matanuska Bridge, but other bridges and structures that were built in the days of the construction of the railroad back in 1915, 1916, 1917, and 1918, and built of timber, and they are in such a condition that it is becoming dangerous to travel over them.

The amount that ought to be appropriated immediately for capital expenditures on the railroad is $796,800, as contained in the Department estimates.

Mr. RICH. Who made up those figures?

Mr. DIMOND. They were made up in the Department, but once the Bureau of the Budget passes upon the amount, the lips of the men in the Department are closed, and they cannot ask for any more. But there is no bar upon my asking for it, and I do ask for it, and I urge it upon you just as vigorously as I can. Why not appropriate that money now, so that the work can go ahead as fast as it can be economically prosecuted, and thus avoid the danger of having accidents on the railroad in which lives may be uselessly sacrificed.

You say that the railroad cost $71,000,000. That is true, but the men who work on the railroad, many of them men who have been on the railroad and worked there since the early days, tell me, and I believe what they say, that the railroad was never really built, never really completed, because a lot of temporary structures were put up that were not intended to be permanent.

And yet we have had these so-called deficits over a period of years, and in past years the appropriations made to cover those alleged deficits have been used for capital expenditures that should have been made at the time that the road was built.

I have traveled over that railroad from the time that it was first opened in 1922, almost every year until the present time, and I know that when the railroad was put into operation there were miles of track that had practically no ballast. As I say, the railroad was never completed. Another $6,000,000 or $8,000,000 should have been spent on the railroad before anybody ever considered it completed and this money that we are asking for now is money that should have been appropriated as a part of the expense of construction. It should be appropriated now and should remain available until the road is really completed and put into good condition.

I repeat that this is a capital expenditure, and it has nothing to do, in my judgment, with the operation of the railroad. The railroad really should have been completed in the first place, and it was not so completed. When it was possible to run trains over the railroad, then Congress said-and this is my own conclusion-"You are able to run trains over it; why not get over it the best you can for a while"?

It is a false economy, and Colonel Ohlson brought up a point with reference to that, that if he could spend $130,000 to put in a tie-treating plant, it would prolong the life of the ties 10 or 15 years, and that is true economy. I could not say of my own knowledge that by so doing we are going to save $3,000,000, but I do know that in the long run we would save a lot of money.

Mr. RICH. This administration has been noted for economy. Mr. DIMOND. Alaska has been kind of a stepchild. We have to come here and beg for things, and frequently we do not get them. But this is one of the items that certainly ought to be taken care of in order to render the operation of the Alaska Railroad safe. There is no use fussing around with it, by merely putting in a half or a quarter or a tenth of the amount of money that ought to be spent. Why not spend the money and get the railroad in shape, put in steel bridges and a tie-treating plant and get the road on a sound basis of operation? If any private company owned the railroad, that is the thing that would have been done in the first place, if they possibly could have obtained the money. If that is done, the Alaska Railroad will pay its own way.

Mr. JOHNSON. What is the amount of the deficit of the railroad? Mr. DIMOND. According to the figures given, there was an operating surplus of some $9,000 last year, but, of course, these bridges were not built. They should have been built last year, and would have been if the money had been available, but, according to the financial set-up, that should be considered as a capital investment, as I understand it. There was not enough money appropriated by Congress to take care of these necessary capital investments.

Mr. JOHNSON. I am wondering if your highway from-what is that point, figure 21 on the map?

Mr. DIMOND. Valdez.

Mr. JOHNSON. Is the road from Valdez to Fairbanks not being used to haul a lot of traffic, that might otherwise go over the railroad. Mr. DIMOND. Very little of it; a few hundred tons only.

Mr. JOHNSON. That would be the case in the United States, with the trucks and the busses taking the traffic away from the railroad. That happens all over.

Mr. DIMOND. Of course. Tolls are imposed upon traffic over the highway, which I think should be removed, but upon that matter I do not seem to agree with the Department.

Mr. JOHNSON. What is the purpose of the toll? To protect the railroad?

Mr. BURLEW. Yes; during the summer months they do have some competition there, and they put on the tax.

Mr. RICH. With respect to your statement concerning the proposed expense of $135,000 for that creosoting plant for the treatment of railroad ties, the man who has charge of the railroad said here a while ago that he would present a statement showing what the saving in cost would be in the tie item alone, if that were installed, and I think that that could be embodied in the record right after Mr. Dimond's statement.

NEED FOR AND IMPORTANCE OF AIR FIELDS

Mr. DIMOND. Recently, within the last year and a half, a survey was made, perhaps preliminary, but sufficient for the purpose, to show the need of air fields in Alaska, and as a result of this survey a program was made up which would require, if put into construction, $2,900,000 for a system of air fields all over the Territory.

The principal need of air fields of course arises out of the lack of roads. It would be true economy to build air fields in order to facilitate transportation between the various ports of the territory.