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Mr. Johnson. I wonder, since we are on the subject, if you would also say just what is needed in the way of new construction at the Fort Sill Indian School, near Lawton?

Mr. Dodd. At Fort Sill there is need also for a school building. The plant at Fdrt Sill is almost an exact duplicate of the plant at Riverside. The same plans were used for both institutions.

There is also a need at the Fort Sill school for considerable remodeling and improvement of dormitory facilities and other facilities at the school. The dormitories for the boys and for the girls both are in rather poor condition.

Mr. Johnson. Did you say "rather poor"? I would say that they are in "very poor condition."

Mr. Dodd. All right; "very poor." I will agree with you on that.

Then again the Commissioner, Mr. Collier, was asked about the matter. This is a question I asked Mr. Collier:

Mr. Johnson. Then you feel that you would be justified in putting on a real construction program to meet the urgent needs at both schools at the earliest possible date? [speaking of the two schools at Fort Sill and Riverside].

Mr. Collier. We would feel justified in recommending new construction at both institutions.

Mr. Johnson. Then, Mr. Dodd, I made this statement:

Mr. Johnson. So this committee has not made any appropriation for construction at either school?

That is only a part of the discussion just to keep the record straight. Is that correct, Mr. Dodd? Mr. Dodd. That is correct. Mr. Johnson. Then Mr. Collier stated:

It was my understanding that there was a definite budget policy against miscellaneous construction. I had understood that there was a definite budget policy against requesting money for construction in appropriation bills.

And then the hearings show I remarked:

I am glad for the record to show for the first time that there is urgent need for new construction at both schools in question.


And again in discussing the situation at the Concho School, the record on page 974 shows that you said this, Mr. Dodd:

There are a number of buildings that are old, that have been in use for a very long time, and which are in a dilapidated condition. The gymnasium is nothing to brag about. The dormitories could stand a considerable amount of repairing, and there are other structures that are also in need of more attention than we have been able to give them during the past year.

There has also been projected for future consideration the possible replacement of the hospital there, which is a frame structure. The idea is to remove the frame structure that has been in use for a great many years, and is more of a fire hazard than anything else.

Now, Mr. Dodd, in looking through the bill there is a total request of $0,995,000 including irrigation, road building, and not a dime for construction in either Riverside, Fort Sill, or Concho Indian Schools in Oklahoma, although the record shows that 2 years ago there was an urgent need for it. Frankly, I am chagrined and humiliated to tliink that this bill would come in here without any request for any construction for either school, and if I have my way about it it will never go out in that kind of shape. I am deeply disappointed that you would be asking for a lot of construction in Alaska and many other places, but you are not urging any construction in either of these schools that a year ago you thought an urgent necessity.

Now. would you say, as you said a year ago, that there is still ar urgent necessity for the construction, as you mentioned a year ago at the Riverside School and the Fort Sill School and at the Concho Indian School?


Mr. Dodd. May I say first that we share your disappointment h making no provision in this estimate for the construction at the schools to which you have referred.

In preparation of our preliminary estimates, when I finally got the urgent needs for construction lined up, needs that we have gone over for at least the last 3 years, we had a total of better than $19,000,000

It was then necessary to pare that figure down.

Our preliminary budget figure had been established and we finally squeezed into that total of that $6,732,019 our most urgent need. We studied for days on the projects that would be and would not be included.

We put the projects in without any priority. We figured that then the $19,000,000 was reduced to the $6,732,000. We had all A priorities in our list. Included in that list for the Concho school was an item of $50,000 for dormitory facilities and $27,500 for an employees' building.

There was $58,000 for a new classroom building, to replace the old and antiquated and unfit building that was there. All I say with reference to the classroom building goes with equal force to the boys dormitory, I believe it is. One of the dormitories I think was remodeled, but I believe the boys' dormitory is in the worst condition today, and certainly that holds true for the employees' building.

Under the Kiowa jurisdiction we asked for $73,000 for dormitory facilities at the Riverside School, the scheme there eventually being to construct six unit dormitories to accommodate from 18 to 25 persons each.

We asked for $73,000 which would cover the cost of three units expecting to come back the second year for the other half of the program.

At the Fort Sill school over on the western side of the jurisdiction we asked for $73,000 for a new school building. We asked for money for two new dwellings at the Riverside school at a total cost of $12,000; for three dwellings at Fort Sill, one at the school, two at the hospitalThe two at the hospital are necessary to take care of the additional physicians that will be needed when they get the tuberculosis annes completed.

When that building is completed and occupied we will have facilities for about 150 patients; and that will be one of the largest hospitals that we have in the service.

We went before the Budget Bureau and we had hearings on the items. The total perhaps was somewhat staggering to them because we had brought into this construction item all of the construction that we were proposing. We had brought together under this submission all of the estimates of the construction items that previously *fre scattered from one end of the bill to the other, and you would have to earch for them to find what the real cost was. Personally we felt hat that was poor budgeting, that Congress ought to know what the onstruction appropriation was and where it was all to be found.

Regardless of all that we were finally given the figures by the budget Bureau of $1,905,000. The designation of the projects was eft to us. We had to go over the list and select the priorities.

I was well aware of the situation in your district as I was with the Leeds in many other places. It was a heart-rending task to sit down md strip out of what was once $19,000,000 just one-tenth of that >rogram or $1,905,000.

I made up this statement and looked at it and said that that would lever do, that we were simply being deprived of much construction hat certainly was needed, and needed in the worst way.

So I attempted to put a number of things in what we termed i priority, and a list of others in B, C, and D. I tried to salvage out )f the total requests of our $6,723,000 priorities in A class of $3,513,869.

Mr. Johnson. How much in A priority group?

Mr. Dodd. In the A priority group I tried to salvage $3,513,869.

I went back to the Bureau of the Budget and made as urgent an ippeal as I could for the needs that we had, but I was unsuccessful, ne were compelled to select $1,905,000 of projects.

I take full responsibility for the projects that are in here. They Acre selected in the order of their urgency.


Mr. Leavy. Mr. Dodd, in connection with the three projects in Representative Johnson's district: Are the merits as between the three projects such that you could classify the one as being of greater or more immedate need than either of the other two?

Mr. Dodd. The first item of priority under the Kiowa jurisdiction is the replacement of a portion of the dormitory facilities at the Riverside school.

Mr. Leavy. At a cost of how much?

Mr. Dodd. At a cost of $73,000.

The second item is a new school building at Fort Sill also at a cost of $73,000 provided market prices do not run too high on it.

The third item of priority would be two of the three cottages at Fort Sill to take care of the additional physicians. That is balanced almost by the need for the two cottages at Riverside, but if we get dormitory facilities we will be able to squeeze through for another vear with the quarters that we have, because some quarters will be provided in the dormitories for the matrons and other employees who are stationed in the dormitories.

There is another project that is of importance at the Riverside school and one which we will have to face in the next year or two. As you know, the campus there is now crowded.

Mr. Johnson. That is right.

Mr. Dodd. And in building the school building that we were able to get at Riverside we had to jam that building in front of the present employees' building. You have the gymnasium over in the north end of the campus, I believe. We put the school building in here [indicating]. We expect to have to rebuild this portion of the quadrangle anyhow, and we knew, since this was the only site that we could get for the school building without going down by the dairy barn, tk employees' building would have to be replaced soon.

Now, it is very inconvenient as it is, and some of the people down there have been criticizing us for putting the school building where it overlaps that building. We realized that situation. We went then with our eyes open and with the full expectation of replacing that building in the next 2 years, but we have selected these other items of first priority.

Mr. Johnson. What would you say about the needs at Concho Indian school? Would you class that as being somewhat urgent You did a year ago.

Mr. Dodd. I would say that perhaps the dormitory facilities art the most urgent.

Mr. Johnson. Has the need for improving the heating system attk Concho School been brought to your attention?

Mr. Dodd. Just recently; yes. We had an allotment from the appropriation for public works for a new heating plant, but no pro ision was made for relaying the distribution mains. It has been found, upon careful investigation in the field, that the distribution mains art in very poor condition. This matter was not brought to our attention however, until after our estimates for 1938 had been completed.

Mr. Johnson. You feel that there is an urgent need for overhauling the distribution lines?

Mr. Dodd. Yes, sir.

Mr. Johnson. Do you have in mind what it will cost to do thai work?

Mr. Dodd. Approximately $25,000.

Mr. Johnson. I have also had some correspondence concerning the sewage disposal at Fort Sill. What do you know about that situation?

Mr. Dodd. That is another matter that has been brought to our attention since our estimates for next year were prepared.

Mr. Johnson. Have field studies been made of the situation?

Mr. Dodd. Yes, sir; we received a field report the other day indicating that the situation was quite bad; that it had been condemned by sanitary officials, and that not less than $20,000 would be required to install a satisfactory sewage-disposal system.

Mr. Johnson. With these items in mind, I would like for you to indicate what, in your opinion, should be the order of priority for the improvements you have outlined at the Riverside and Fort Sill schools, under the Kiowa jurisdiction, and at Concho.

Mr. Dodd. It would be difficult to choose, because of the importance of some of the items. My best judgment would be (a) the dormitory at Riverside; (6) the schoolbuilding at Fort Sill; (c) the repairs to the heating system at Concho; (d) the improvement of the sewer system at Fort Sill; (e) two physicians' cottages at the Fort Sill Hospital' if) two cottages at the Riverside School; (g) dormitory facilities at the Concho School; (h) a new employees building at the Riverside School.

Mr. Johnson. Your judgment coincides with mine, in general. I have been to each of those schools and know of the conditions there. I know the needs are extremely urgent.


For the information of this committee, I will ask you, Mr. Dodd, to nsert in the record at this point, the details by jurisdictions of the imounts you requested for new construction in your estimates presented to the Bureau of the Budget for 1938.

Mr. Dodd. In accordance with your request, the following statement is submitted for the record:

For the construction, repair, or rehabilitation of school, agency, hospital, or >ther buildings and utilities, including the purchase of land and the acquisition >f easements or rights of way when necessary, and including the purchase of furniture, furnishings, and equipment, as follows:

Alaska: Day schools and quarters, including remodeling of existing buildings, 5200,000; hospitals and quarters, $490,000.

Blackfeet, Montana: Remodeling and repairing school buildings, $30,000; two dwellings, $15,000; jail and police quarters, $15,000; remodeling office buildings, $6,000.

Carson, Nevada: Central heating plant, $80,000; reconstruction of power lines, 55,000; school building and gymnasium, Walker River, $40,000; addition to Dffice, $10,000; arts and crafts building, $17,500.

Cherokee, North Carolina: Two dwellings, $14,000; dormitory facilities, $75,000.

Cheyenne and Arapaho, Oklahoma: School plant for predelinquents, $280,000; dormitorv facilities, $50,000; employees building, $27,500; classroom building, 158,000."

Cheyenne River, South Dakota: Classroom building, $95,000; improvement of iav school facilties, $57,500.

Chilocco, Oklahoma: Cottage, $5,000; grain elevator, $20,000.

Choctaw, Mississippi: Quarters for employees, $10,000; general repairs to school and agency buildings, $6,000.

Claremore, Oklahoma: Two dwellings, $13,000.

Colorado River, Arizona: Telephone line, $10,000; improvements to water system, $9,O00; miscellaneous small projects $10,400; general repairs to school and agency buildings, $9,200.

Colville," Washington: Three dwellings, $19,500; power line, Little Falls to Wellpinit, $10,000.

Consolidated Chippewa. Minnesota: General repairs to buildings and utilities, $20,000; nurses homes, White Earth and Fond du Lac Hospitals, $40,000.

Consolidated Ute, Colorado: Nurses home, $15,000; employees building, $20,000; shop, warehouse, and machine shed, $11,500.

Crow, Montana: Improvement of water system, $10,000; jail and police quarters, $15,000; garages and shop, $20,000.

Crow Creek, South Dakota: School units, $153,000; dormitory facilities, $30,000.

Five Civilized Tribes, Oklahoma: Day-school facilities, $35,000; improvement of sewer and water systems, Wheelock Academy, $5,000; improvement of sewer system, Jones Academy, $5,000; one dwelling, Wheelock Academy, $6,000; one dwelling, Jones Academv, $6,000; milk and poultrv houses, Wheelock Academy, $2,500.

Flandreau, South Dakota: Improvement of sewer svstem, $20,000; school building, $245,000.

Flathead, Montana: Two dwellings, $17,000; general repairs to buildings and utilities, $10,000; muses' quarters, Ronan, $7,000; office building, St. Ignatius, $5,000; remodeling garage into quarters, $3,500.

Fort Apache, Arizona: Improvements to hospital, $14,000; two dwellings, $13,000.

Fort Belknap, Montana: Elevator, hospital, $8,500; quarters and dispensary, Lodge Pole, $7,500; office building, $10,000.

Fort Bcrthold, North Dakota: Improvement of water system, $15,000; remodeling hospital, $8,500; jail and police quarters, $10,000.

Kort Hall, Idaho: Improvement of sewer and water systems, $35,000; farm station, Bannock Creek, $7,500; day school facilities, $70,000; two dwellings, $15,000.

Fort Lapwai, Idaho: Improvement of heating system, $10,000.

Fort Peck, Montana: Two dwellings, $15,000.

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