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accepting her. He says we offer a better brand of education at Fort Sill than they can supply there at Lawton. I thought you might be interested in knowing that.

Mr. Johnson. That is certainly a compliment to the Fort Sill Indian school. Superintendent Swinney of Lawton, is one of the best superintendents in the State, and the Lawton high school is considered one of the outstanding in Oklahoma.

Mr. Beatty. She is in the lower grades.


Mr. Johnson. Are you familiar with the school at Ignacio, Colo? Have you been out there?

Mr. Beatty. Yes. The school at Ignacio is one of the two original boarding schools in the Ute jurisdiction. The other school was closed some years ago and is operated as a day school now. The total number of Utes is very limited at the present time. Out of the total school population at Ignacio, of 200 children there are only 50 Utes in attendance. That runs from the elementary tlirough the ninth grade. The rest of the students at Ignacio are Navajos.

About a year ago, Mr. Oliver LaFarge visited Ignacio and wrote in to us the suggestion that we try to make Ignacio into an agricultural high school for Ute boys and girls.

I visited there, and I find that it is going to be very difficult to find enough Ute youngsters to make possible an agricultural high school. They just do not exist. Most of them who are there are in the public schools. Whether or not Ignacio is the desirable place to develop another Navajo high school remains to be seen. It has excellent facilities for irrigation and for an agricultural program, and equipment to handle about 200 children.

Mr. Johnson. As I understand it, our beloved chairman of the Appropriations Committee, Mr. Taylor, is tremendously interested in this school.

Mr. Beatty. Yes, sir.

Mr. Johnson. I have never visited it, but in his absence I am very anxious that you give us what information you can with reference to the school, and whether or not you could put a complete course in agriculture in the Ignacio School, if that is what it is.

Mr. Beatty. Yes.

Mr. Johnson. I think what Chairman Taylor has in mind is a school similar to the Chilocco School.

Mr. Beatty. Well, there are two problems to be faced there. Whatever we would do there we could not duplicate the Chilocco School because of the lack of land area.

Also, there is another very serious problem which arises in connection with that development, and I think that Mr. Collier or Mr. Zimmerman may want to speak to this point, and that is that the type of agriculture we could train students for at Ignacio is hardly the type of agricultural work which a Navajo would have practicrl use for, unless he came from the immediate basin of the San Juan River, or was going to live on some of the irrigated land along in that area. Most of the Navajo area is not nearly as fertile as the Southern Ute jurisdiction.

There have been, at times, suggestions that the Navajos might be colonized on certain of the Ute lands. I do not know whether Mr. Collier has information as to whether that is going to occur.

Mr. Collier. We want to see the San Juan Basin developed, but whether there will be any development, is all in the future.

Mr. Beatty. If that goes forward, Ignacio may be a very desirable site for agricultural training for children in the San Juan River Basin.

Mr. Collier. And if that is not carried forward, then it is a very expensive luxury.

Mr. Beatty. Yes; a very expensive luxury to offer that kind of a program.

Mr. Johnson. I am not familiar with it. If Chairman Taylor were present today he doubtless would go into the matter at some length. I would suggest, Doctor, that you contact Chairman Taylor and get the information into the record that he desires.

Mr. Beatty. The present plant facUities at Ignacio are excellent. There is a very good school building there, two excellent dormitories, a very comfortable and well-equipped kitchen and dining hall, and the water development of the school is thoroughly satisfactory. It is quite modern; one of our most modern, I would say.


Mr. Johnson. Let me ask you if there is not a serious need for an additional boys' school in the Indian Service and whether or not such a school is contemplated being established in Oklahoma? I wonder if you might discuss that proposal now and advise the committee if there is a real need for such a school and if so, why?

Mr. Beatty. Yes. We have been giving a great deal of consideration to the proposal that Mr. Johnson has referred to. We have termed it, in the office, the "predelinquent" school.

We made a study 2 years ago in the Oklahoma area of almost 500 children, boys and girls, who were referred to us by teachers, by social workers, by court attendants, and others, as Indian children who were getting into difficulties around the State of Oklahoma. Some were in the way of being sent to reform schools and jails, and some were considered chronic truants, incorrigibles, or children who were called difficult. We secured the cooperation of the educational institutions in the State, and established what was called a traveling mental hygiene clinic. These children were tested with regard to their mentality, and an analysis was made with regard to their types of delinquency, their homes were investigated, their school records studied, and a large number of other things were done to find out what type of child they were and why they were causing the difficulties they were to the schools.

The studies of the clinic reveal that the bulk of the children examined were all in the lower ranges of intelligence; and I do not mean by that they are morons, but speaking in terms of I. Q., they are below their normal mental age. Between one-fourth to one-third definitely lack the native intelligence to enable them to function in the face of demands of ordinary society. That is, they were children who were below the level of our industrial age. They might function in a comparatively small urban or rural community quite well, because the jobs they would have would be comparatively simple jobs, but in a city or in an urban area the demands are pretty stiff for them to meet.

Thirty-three of them were definitely feeble-minded and are in need of permanent institutional care. Steps have been taken to enroll these last in the State institution for the feeble-minded.

A much larger number, while not, strictly speaking, institutional cases, are sufficiently dull to need special training. In general, they are older boys and girls, seriously retarded, who find it difficult to meet the demands made by the average school program. For these handicapped cases it seems wise to provide a measure of segregation in order that a simpler program may be developed which will make fewer demands upon these children. We should like to establish a special school for this group; that is, their public schools have practically given them up. They would rather have them out of their schools than in them. They do not want them there, even though we pay tuition for them.

Most of our boarding-school children are brighter children who are demanding more in the way of education than we can give them. It takes more money and more personnel to run a school for limited or backward children than it does for the brighter children. Therefore, we feel that we cannot handle them adequately in our existing boarding schools. So, the group that made this study recommended very strongly to the education division that we take steps to establish a new school for what we term our "predelinquent" children, a school which could be geared to their needs, which would attempt to give them simple vocational skills, and gradually follow them up into agriculture or into industry, to see that they got a job that they could measure up to.

That is being done in a number of white communities today, where training of these children places them successfully.

Because the larger bulk of the Indian popidation is in Oklahoma, there is definitely a need for that type of thing in Oklahoma, and it shows that State should be chosen as the site for such a school. We immediately examined all existing areas and found that, with the exception of two areas on the Cheyenne and the Arapaho Reservations, the facilities which we desired in terms of land were not adequate. We have to have land so that we can farm. You cannot teach 150 boys to be farmers on a 40-acre tract. You have to have several thousands of acres of land in that kind of country. The ideal tract, of course, would be one like the Chilocco School has, of 10,000 acres, but we wanted to do it with as little expense as possible. There are two possibilities. One is the existing school at Concho. That is a reservation boarding school for the Cheyenne and Arapaho Indians, the one I spoke of earlier. The other was the abandoned site of a former boarding school at Cantonment in Oklahoma. This site has no facilities at the present time but about 2,000 acres of land.

The Concho site is a small school for about 175 children, and contains about four or five thousand acres of good farm land, grazing land, and other things of that kind. At either place this project will involve the erection of new facilities.

We cannot at the present time discontinue the present pupils at Concho. The school is needed there. Furthermore, we have no other place to put the pupils. They are orphans or children from broken homes or who have no school facilities near their homes. We can move them to the other side of the agency, and we discussed with the Bureau of the Budget the possibility of such a move.

With the other demands before us, it seems inappropriate this year to commence any new project, but we feel that eventually it must be given serious consideration if we are going to take the type of child which may become a burden and make him into a definite economic asset to the community. I think something can be done for them.

Mr. Johnson. Now, with reference to this proposed school that you say you have asked for but which the Budget did not give you for predelinquent children, you say that you have 500 such boys and girls?

Mr. Beatty. They are boys and girls both, and we would not hesitate to start up a coeducational institution under proper guidance and supervision.

Mr. Johnson. I believe you say you are considering two propositions, either establishing it in connection with the Concho School already in existence; or on the old cantonment site, where there has been an abandoned institution?

Mr. Beatty. That is right.

Mr. Johnson. Would you care to state for the record whether or not any decision has been reached as to which of those sites is preferable?

Mr. Beatty. That is a matter on which I do not think we are prepared to give a final answer at this time. There are certain recommendations coming in from the field, not yet received in the office, which, if favorable to the Concho site, would indicate that Concho might be the ideal place.

Mr. Johnson. I am tremendously interested in the proposal from the standpoint of assisting these children. I have had a considerable amount of correspondence from the Indians themselves. They have heard about the proposal and are heartily in accord with such a proposal.

I am hopeful that the situation can be worked out in the future, and that such a school can be established, just as soon as it is practical to do so. I shall not, of course, press it in this bill, inasmuch as it has not received the endorsement of the Budget, but I am hopeful that the Budget will recommend it next year.

Mr. Beatty. We will have all of our figures ready for that next year with a concrete proposal for the site.

Mr. Johnson. I am going to depend on that. Then I am going to insist on the cooperation of the Budget Bureau. And if it does not, I shall insist that the school be established anyway. Such a school should, in my judgment, stress agriculture and vocational training.



Mr. Leavy. Doctor, there is a very substantial increase, is there not, in the Budget estimate this year over last year?

Mr. Beatty. There is some increase.

Mr. Leavy. In what manner can you justify that?

Mr. Lambertson. Where are the big increases?

Mr. Fickinger. On page 2 of our justification we show our figures for 1937, and the 1938 estimates, and show the increases also.

Most of that comes about as the result of the establishment of new day schools, the opening of schools that have been provided for us by Public Works allotments and increases in enrollments.


Mr. LAMBERTSON. How many schools were opened by emergerer


Mr. Dopp. There were 47 schools in the Navajo area, and there were about 55 other schools throughout the l'nited States, either blase! new or enlarged. As I recall the figure, it ran about 101 new der schools, or old plants that were rehabilitated, enlarged, or imprir Those schools ran from one classroom to schools such as the Salt Riias School in Arizona, which carries a full high-school course, and also le ('entral School of the Pina Reservation.

Mr. LAMBERTSON. You have just about as many new when the Navajo Reservation as you have on all of the rest of them pil together.

Mr. Dopp. Yes; that is right.
Mr. LAMBERTSON. The Navajos seem to get a lot of attention

Mr. Dopp. The Navajo Reservation is where so many chuldreo have been out of school. The Commissioner testified, on the openin: day of our hearing, that more than 17,000 Indian children were it of school, and that upward of 7,000 of that number were on the Navajo Reservation.

Mr. BEATTY. We started with hardly any day-school facilities og the Vavajo Reservation. There were less facilities there than any. where else in the country.

Mr. LEAVY. Does this expanded program make it possible for erers Indian child to get an elementary education?

Mr. BEATTY. So; not yet. This represents two types of expanses, elementary expansion, and high-school expansion, where Indian cilin dren are requesting high-school education and training similar to that asked for by the white children. In other words there has been an increase of 500 percent in white high-school attendance in the last 20 years. The boarding-school increase this year of pretty beari $300,000 is due almost exclusively to the increase in high-born attendance.

INCREASE IN NUMBER OF TEACHERS Mr. LEAVY. Of course, it has resulted in a very substantial incrras in your teaching stafi also?

Vr. BHATI. Yen.
Mr LLAV. Or how many teacher!

Mr FIGANGER. It provides for almost 1,000 additional pupils, and that will figure in the neighborhood of 30 pupils to the teacher, pleas rabatenre.

Mr. Brain). That is in the boarding schools alone!
Vir FinIVOR. Y

Mr. Lan I have in mind this figure here, elementary teachers. Leyrar you had "), and this year you propose to have 40)

Mr. FIMINORI a dditional teachers are required to care for the additional pupul

Vir was. Well, these increuses, of coure, are going to be permanent

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