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reduced to $5, and then to $3 in Yellowstone, and we always bring these matters up to show you what the Secretary of the Interior thinks is proper.

Mr. Johnson. How do the receipts from Yellowstone compare now with the receipts when you charged $5 or $7.50?

Mr. DEMARAY. The receipts, of course, are probably more today than they were when we were charging $7.50, because there are more visitors to the park.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Here is what I think is worth conveying in connection with these proposed fees, that there is no desire or plan to charge any human being for getting into the great outdoors and seeing these wonderful things of nature. The charge is made for the automobile's use of roads. I think that that distinction should be made very clear. It is a facility that the Government provides in the way of roads, whereby the automobile can go in very much more cheaply than any other form of travel. If they were going in by team, the usual method of former days, it would cost them five, six, or seven times as much.

Mr. LEAVY. Are any of these charges in any of the parks made on a per capita basis?

Mr. DEMARAY. The only per capita charge at the present time is for special guide service.

Mr. LEAVY. But the other charges are on the automobile or the conveyance?

Mr. DEMARAY. That is right.



Mr. O'NEAL. What sort of a department do you have and how much money do you have to spend in that service for promotional work?

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Advertising?

Mr. O'XEAL. Yes. If these were private enterprises, just like a lot of things in Europe, where they attract hundreds of thousands of people, it would be made sell-supporting. How much of an effort has been made along the line of what is being done by, say, Cook's Agency, or an organization of that kind?

Mr. CAMMERER. I am glad that you brought that up, because that is very important. The fact is that the travel movement is on, and with the shorter working hours coming, the people want to go to these places, and it is a fine sign that people are more and more able to get out into the open and see the beauties of their country. For instance, when they come to the national parks, they ought to have something, such as a circular like this, to tell them about the roads, something about the beauty of the surroundings, the geology, the flora, and the fauna.

('ongress last year gave us $.50,000 for all of our printing, not only of these pamphlets here, which are sent out by the thousands individually, to school children and others that ask for them, but are also given to the people that come to the park .

Mr. Johnson. They are not sold?

Mr. CAMMERER. They are given, and before 2 wechs have expired, the supply is pone, and Mr. Demaray can give you the exact amount that we have spent for these circulars.

What we really need is $125,000 immediately to do this work. I think that that is the figure.



(See p. 504) Mr. DEMARAY. We would require $125,000 a year for promotional work, and we have $50,000 at the present time. We are handicapped to a greater extent now by a ruling of the Comptroller General, which has come out just recently, in which he has ruled that under the law which is quoted in his decision, the rotoprinting or multigraphing or similar processes cannot be used in getting out small circulars, as we have done, of this character (submitted samples of leaflets).

Mr. JOHNSON. On what grounds? Mr. DEMARAY. These are the types of things that we were trying to get out. It is the only information of these areas available at all.

Mr. O'NEAL. This is fine, but what I had in mind was some announcement of what it costs, say, from Chicago to Yellowstone Park by automobile, and have that put some place where people will have the opportunity to see it. People do not generally know what the cost is at the parks, and they are a little afraid to start on such a trip.

It seems to me that we could very well afford to provide for a department of promotional activities, to get the American public to go to these parks.

Mr. CAMMERER. I think that that is a very fine idea, but you do not need another department. You have the biggest travel agency in the world right here in the National Park Service. · Mr. O'NEAL. I mean a department of your work.

Mr. CAMMERER. We do not have the money for it.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. I think that it is an outrage that you are stopped from multigraphing things like this. I know from my personal contact with these matters that it is one of the most useful things that you are doing, and if you will prepare the necessary language to cover that in this bill, I will present the matter to this committee, because I think that this is done cheaply and economically the way it is.

Mr. Rick. I do not think the Comptroller General wants to stop these people from publishing these things, but he wants to cause them to conform to the rules and regulations of the Joint Committee on Printing. Now, the fact of the matter is that they can get these things printed over at the Government Printing Office which we have established over there, which we have increased in size and made the largest printing office in the country for the purpose of doing the work of the Government, but these departments want to set up their own printing plants, and that is the reason why the Comptroller General is objecting.

Am I right?

Mr. DEMARAY. I might explain it in this way, that with $50,000 to do our printing, if we are going to get out information on all of the areas under our jurisdiction, it is necessary to resort to other means to provide for that printing.

Str. Rich. That is just what the Joint Committee on Printing, of which I am a member, objects to. They think that they are able to

do this work in the Government Printing Office, and why can you not have your printing done over there?

Mr. DEMARAY. For this reason, that the Department has a duplicating plant which they require for letters, and that sort of thing. Those people are not rushed all of the time. They are employed regularly. The employees of the Park Service can prepare this inaterial, can type it, and can have the little illustrative blocks made by people permanently employed, and then they can be sent downstairs and printed without cost to the Department. If we send it to the Government Printing Office, we have to pay Government Printing Office prices, and when you have a very small appropriation, you certainly cannot get this work done. We have no objection to having all of the work done at the Government Printing Office, provided that Congress will make the necessary appropriation.

Mr. Rich. ('ongress makes the appropriation for the Government Printing Office and for your office. You want to get an authorization so that you can do the work. I will say to the chairman of this committee and to the members of the Park Service that if the Printing Department of this Government permits these various departments to do as some of them have done, you will have a printing department in every one of them. I am convinced, from my observation of the operation of the printing divisions of this Government, that that is the case.

Mr. ScriGHAM. This is not printing. This is what we call mimeographing or duplicating, and they have it done very economically, so what earthly reason can there be for sending these to the Government Printing Office, when the cost would be 10 times as much?

Mr. Rich. They would not be satisfied with that very long. They would want to have their own printing establishment.

Mr. LEAVY. I am very much in accord with the general statment of our colleague, Mr. Rich, that all of our Government printing should be done in the Government Printing Office here, and I think that it is a highly efficient establishment and it does its work extremely economically, but I wanted to ask a question or two concerning these pamphlets.

Do you get one out similar to this one that you have on the Hot Springs Vational Park for every national park that we have in the


Mr. DEMARAY. No, sir. We have never been able to print circulars for each one of our national parhs. The reason that Hot Springs and the larger parks have pamphlets is that they have been in the system for a long time and they have had circulars for many years, and it is s lot easier, and cheaper, to revise those circulars than to get out wholly new ones.

Mr. ('AMMERER. And we have not been able to meet more than one-tenth of the demand.

Mr. LEAVY. I was coming to that, to the demand for these circulan, Do you in any way give preference in the matter of demand to the school sistems?

Mr. CAMMERER. School children circulars"

Mr. LEAVY. I am not ashing about school children. I am asking about school systems. That would be the superintendents or the heads of the schools.

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