do this work in the Government Printing Office, and why can you not have your printing done over there?

Mr. DEMARAY. For this reason, that the Department has a duplicating plant which they require for letters, and that sort of thing. Those people are not rushed all of the time. They are employed regularly. The employees of the Park Service can prepare this material, can type it, and can have the little illustrative blocks made by people permanently employed, and then they can be sent downstairs and printed without cost to the Department. If we send it to the Government Printing Office, we have to pay Government Printing Office prices, and when you have a very small appropriation, you cer tainly cannot get this work done. We have no objection to having all of the work done at the Government Printing Office, provided that Congress will make the necessary appropriation.

Mr. RICH. Congress makes the appropriation for the Government Printing Office and for your office. You want to get an authorization so that you can do the work. I will say to the chairman of this committee and to the members of the Park Service that if the Printing Department of this Government permits these various departments to do as some of them have done, you will have a printing department in every one of them. I am convinced, from my observation of the operation of the printing divisions of this Government, that that is the case.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. This is not printing. This is what we call mimeographing or duplicating, and they have it done very economically, so what earthly reason can there be for sending these to the Government Printing Office, when the cost would be 10 times as much?

Mr. RICH. They would not be satisfied with that very long. They would want to have their own printing establishment.

Mr. LEAVY. I am very much in accord with the general statment of our colleague, Mr. Rich, that all of our Government printing should be done in the Government Printing Office here, and I think that it is a highly efficient establishment and it does its work extremely economically, but I wanted to ask a question or two concerning these pamphlets.

Do you get one out similar to this one that you have on the Hot Springs National Park for every national park that we have in the system?

Mr. DEMARAY. No, sir. We have never been able to print circulars for each one of our national parks. The reason that Hot Springs and the larger parks have pamphlets is that they have been in the system for a long time and they have had circulars for many years, and it is a lot easier, and cheaper, to revise those circulars than to get out wholly

new ones

Mr. CAMMERER. And we have not been able to meet more than one-tenth of the demand

Mr. LEAVY. I was coming to that, to the demand for these circulars. Do you in any way give preference in the matter of demand to the school systems?

Mr. CAMMERER School children circulars?

Mr. LEAVY. I am not asking about school children. I am asking about school systems. That would be the superintendents or the heads of the schools.

Mr. CAMMERER. The curious thing is that in the Washington office we get demands through the mail for these circulars from school children who want them in connection with their graduation subjects, their theses and things like that, and we are not able to meet the demand.

Mr. LEAVY. The purpose of my question was to suggest that if each school, or, say, class in geography, in the United States, could be supplied with a circular such as this with reference to the larger parks, not only would the educational value be manifest, particularly as to outdoor life, but you would likewise create a curiosity which would be a wholesome one and which would result in a tremendous increase in visits to these parks annually, and I am wondering if we could not expand that activity.

Mr. DEMARAY. It would be a wonderful thing.

Mr. CAMMERER. The demand is tremendous for them, and we are not able to meet that demand. You remember that during the war days in the schools they took all of the pictures of the Kaiser and of foreign potentates off of the walls. We would like to get these things into the schools, and eventually those school children will be national park guests, and right on that subject I want to say in addition that the reason for these 180 requests for us to investigate national park possibilities throughout the country is not only because they recognize the educational value of these things, but it means a lot of money distributed throughout the country and in the neighborhoods where those national parks are. I well remember that south Utah was absolutely dormant before our beloved Chief, Mr. Mather, went in there and developed those national parks, and now the people come in there and spend their money for gasoline and food and lodging, not only in the parks, but on the way to them. They buy oil and gas from local people, and they buy their groceries, and so forth, in the community, and that means a great deal.

Mr. LEAVY. I think it is one of the finest of the public services. Mr. CAMMERER. In the Smokies, last year, there have been 750,000 visitors there, and I counted cars from 29 States one Sunday down there, and you can just imagine what that travel means to the economic welfare of this country, and we ought to recognize it, because we are the great travel agency of the Government, that has been recognized by Congress to develop these things.

Mr. LEAVY. What do these pamphlets, like the one on Hot Springs National Park, cost when you put them out, by the thousands or ten

thousands?

Mr. DEMARAY. Those are all printed at the Government Printing Office. We have no printing department ourselves. Of that Hot Springs circular, there were 25,000 copies printed, at a cost of $894.96, and on August 27 they were exhausted. In other words, the edition was printed about this time of the year, and by the 27th of August all of the copies were gone.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. About 3 cents apiece.

Mr. LEAVY. If you increased that number to 200,000, would the rate drop any? Would there be any reduction?

Mr. DEMARAY. Oh, yes; the rate drops as the cost of the assembling and the plating of the pamphlet is absorbed by many more copies. Mr. LEAVY. That is, if you had gotten 100,000 copies, you would have gotten them for considerably less?

Mr. DEMARAY. Maybe 1 cent less, but you would have to pay for

the paper.

Mr. LEAVY. How many parks do you cover with a pamphlet something similar to this?

Mr. DEMARAY. If I might do so, I would like to leave with the committee a list of all of the parks for which pamphlets are printed, the number of visitors to those parks, the number of first editions of the circulars, the number that were sent to the superintendents of the parks for the people who actually arrived there, and the number retained in Washington with which we have to meet the demand that comes to us, and there are really hundreds of requests every day in the mail, the cost of those, the date on which they were exhausted, and the date on which we had the edition reprinted.

Mr. LEAVY. Have you the aggregate expenditure there?

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, sir.

Mr. LEAVY. What is that? Will you give it to us?

Mr. DEMARAY. For all of these circulars our expenditure was $29,204.64. This printing appropriation also must cover all forms and letterheads.

Mr. LEAVY. And that resulted in how many pamphlets describing the parks?

Mr. DEMARAY. About 600,000 altogether.

Mr. LEAVY. And the 600,000 fell far short of meeting the public demand?

Mr. DEMARAY. There were 432,570 visitors to Yellowstone Park, and we had 75,000 circulars printed.

Mr. CAMMERFR. Out of the $50,000, we only have $30,000 available for printing the circulars.

Mr. LEAVY. You printed 600,000 last year?

Mr. CAMMERER. Approximately.

Mr. LEAVY. And it is your thought that the demand would be what, if you were able to comply with all requests? Six million, or something of that nature?

Mr. CAMMERER. If we were going to have any promotional work, we would have to print circulars for each one of these parks.

Mr. LEAVY. I am trying to confine my question to the requests that you were unable to meet last year. My question is, How many of these would you need to meet a demand such as you experienced last year?

Mr. DEMARAY. I think we should have at least 2,000,000 circulars available.

Mr. LEAVY. And that would mean an increase in that item of printing from $29,000, in proportion?

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, sir; it would. Of course, the cost for the greater number of pamphlets would decrease, so that the appropriation would not have to be increased at the same ratio.

Mr. LEAVY. Does your budget estimate include any increase in that item at all?

Mr. DEMARAY. No, sir.

Mr. LEAVY. That is all.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Before you leave that, I note that under "Printing and binding" there is an increase asked for the National Park Service from $50,000 to $55,000; in other words, an increase of $5,000. How do you account for that, when you say that there is no increase?

Mr. DEMARAY. It was increased from $50,000 to $55,000?
Mr. SCRUGHAM. Yes.

Mr. DEMARAY. I was in error, which I am glad has been corrected.

FEES CHARGED FOR DESCRIPTIVE BOOKLETS

Mr. RICH. Mr. O'Neal asked a question awhile ago in reference to a small fee charged for a beautiful booklet describing the parks. I believe there is a lot of merit to that suggestion for this reason: You take a booklet like that, and you have an automobile going into Hot Springs Park, and you have a Government agency there where they are passing something out for nothing. That is a very beautiful booklet, I think. However, if you have an automobile with seven children in it, every one of those children, when they know it does not cost anything, say, "Give me one; give me one", and they will put seven in the car, where one would naturally be enough for the family. They will take them home and probably preserve only one of them, and the chances are that when they are through with the park they are through with the booklet. There is a lot of merit to it in my judgment.

Then, there is another thing, it depends a great deal on how the people doing your work are making distribution. If they are promisenously putting them out, naturally, 30,000 copies, or 600,000 copies, will not go very far; but if they give some consideration to the cars that come into the park and say we will allocate only one to a car or two to a car, they can do a great deal in cutting down the expenses, and makIng your advertising and literature go a great deal further.

PERSONNEL EMPLOYED IN DUPLICATING SECTION

Now, we come back to this question: You say in getting out your your advertisements, and we appreciate the fact that this is published ver in the Government Printing Office, how many people in your Department are making up circulars such as these and others that you have made on your mimeograph? How many people have you in the whce down there?

Mr. DEMARAY. We have no persons actually working on mimeograph machines. We have in our clerical staff an editor, and I think there are two permanent editorial assistants who are actually doing the work of compiling the information and putting it in that form, and Len we send that down to the Department's duplicating section, as it called, and they actually make the finished product down there. Mr. RICH. How many work in the duplicating section?

Mr. DEMARAY. I could not tell you that.

Mr. RICH. That is in your Department, is it not?

Mr. DEMARAY. It is in the Interior Department, but we have Lothing to do with it ourselves.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. You do not do the mimeographing of letters and lars, and so forth?

Mr DEMARAY. No, sir.

Mr. RICH. I am trying to find our what their printing establishment consists of up in the Interior Department.

Mr. DEMARAY. I am not in a position to answer that, Congressan Rich, because that is under the Secretary's Office, and I do not how anything about it.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Mr. Demaray will make a note of that, and if you would like it, I will ask him to put that information in the record. Mr. RICH. I wish you would, because I am only trying to consolidate this branch of the Government.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. That information will be inserted in the record at the proper time.

(Information referred to is as follows:)

Employees of the Miscellaneous Service Section, Department of the Interior

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that if the Park Service can mimeograph these circulars, and do it with no expense, that certainly this committee ought to encourage them in doing that. Insofar as I am concerned, as one member of the committee, I am in favor of putting language in here that will encourage that, and will not permit the Comptroller General to knock it out." Mr. SCRUGHAM. That is, you would specifically authorize them to do it?

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. Yes, sir; specifically authorize them to do it.

Mr. DEMARAY. The expense, of course, is involved in the paper, but the personnel is already employed there. The National Park Service does not have any printing establishment whatever, it is the Department Duplicating Section that has done this work up to the present time, and all we have had to pay for is the cost of the paper alone, so that it is a very small charge against our appropriation, while if we had to send it to the Printing Office, we would not only have to pay for the cost of the paper, but pay for the cost of labor of all of those engaged on that work, because the Government Printing Office naturally charges for the cost of production.

(Language to accomplish Congressman Johnson's suggestion is given below:)

Provided, That leaflets concerning the national parks, monuments, and other areas administered by the National Park Service, may, in the discretion of the Secretary of the Interior, be produced with multilithing, multigraphing, and mimeographing facilities of the Department.

NUMBER OF CIVILIAN CONSERVATION CORPS CAMPS ASSIGNED ΤΟ NATIONAL PARK SERVICE

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Mr. Cammerer, how many C. C. C. camps are assigned to the National Park Service? We would like your comment on the value of such assignments to the Park Service.

Mr. JOHNSON of Oklahoma. And would you also state the number of C. C. C. camps that you are losing or have lost up to the 1st of this