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28 : .-.. thereof by the Secretary of the Treasury to the State in which said

27 -tilated, to be expended as the State legislature may prescribe for the

. blie schools and public roads of the county or counties in which such n i nis are situated. And the remaining 50 per centum of all money re

.: from such grazing lands shall be deposited to the credit of the Indians " " tinal disposition under applicable laws, treaties, or agreements. The .. urim piblic land laws as to said Indian ceded lands within a district created

Art shall continue in operation, except that each and every applica: for net-mineral title to said lands in a district created under this Act shall

*** only if in the opinion of the Secretary of the Interior the land is of the - snarter mited to disposal through the Act under which application is made 1 . crtry and disposal will not affect adversely the best public interest, but ettirment or occupation of such lands shall be permitted until ninety days

wance of an application." Tur timate of $300,000 for the fiscal year 1938 is based on the head of livegu c ted to be placed on range districts now being established. To the - tinue 48 such districts have been established and it is anticipated that :

i additional districts will have been established before the coming fiscal

Vir. ('arpenter, will you proceed?

GENERAL STATEMENT

NUMBER AND NATURE OF ACREAGE ADMINISTERED

Mr. CARPENTER. The original Taylor Act, passed June 28, 1934, rade possible the placing of 80,000,000 acres in the so-called grazing ents in the 10 Western States. Last year 79,805,186 acres had

en placed in the 37 districts. On June 26, 1936, Congress amended ut art and made possible the inclusion of acreage up to 142,000,000

stead of the former 80,000,000-acre limitation; and, acting under "ast amendment there have been 12 additional districts created in the

Western States, so that there are now under administration, in stricts, 110,173,400 acres.

The CRAIRMAN. You might tell the committee the nature of these Cistricts, their size, and what their activities are.

Mr. CARPENTER. There are 49 districts, and they will average in uze that of the State of Connecticut, and they are scattered around

10 Western States, and the object is to conserve the public domain sd to stabilize the range livestock industry.

Toviay that work has been set up by the Secretary of the Interior under the Division of Grazing, and, as originally constituted, to handle be 37 districts and the 80,000,000 acres, it consisted of a total of runnel of 76 full-time employees, and then in order to quickly get fore the Department the conditions and the trade practices of the p ers, the Secretary provided that in each grazing district all who

cht be entitled to a permit or a license to graze will elect represenBam, that is to say, the cattlemen elect the cattle representatives, he wheepmen elect the sheep representatives, and in some cases are

solved goats and horses also, where the goat and horse men will or their representatives, and those committees are known as the ral arivisory boards, consisting of a minimum of 6 men in some dispyte apd as high as 21 in others, but they will average about 14 men, S h makes available to the Department a very accurate knowledge

!!ke conditions of the range and of all of the trade practices, and it 1 91the Department the benefit of the knowledge of these men

manertion with applications for grazing licenses.

The applications are acted on initially by this board in a recommendatory way, and finally by the Division of Grazing, subject to appeal to the Secretary of the Interior, and in that way the Department has stepped into a picture with approximately 8,000,000 head of livestock, and the first year we licensed that livestock, and the next year, by the application of their rules, we were able to decrease the number of livestock a little over 1,000,000 head, about a 15-percent cut down, which is the first step toward rehabilitating the public domain.

The Chairman. It was overgrazed terribly, was it not?
Mr. CARPENTER. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. And prior to that, there was no way of preventing them from eating out the grass roots, for that matter.

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir; and also the regulation of the movements of stock as well as the destruction in property, and the regulation of the seasonal use as well as the development of the range, and the building of improvements.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you explain why it is necessary to prevent them from putting stock on the range before it is ready for them, and destroying it -in other words, the necessity of making them wait until that grass is old enough for the cattle to be put on to eat it?

Mr. CARPENTER. When the snow goes off in the spring, about this time of the year, if the stock gets right on there before the ground is dried out, they step and slip in the mud and cut out more grass than they eat; which is a very material factor in the deterioration of the range. A similar condition is caused by overgrazing, but it can be accomplished quicker in the spring than at any other time.

The CHAIRMAX. And now they will not let them put the stock on the range until it is time for them to go on?

Mr. CARPENTER. That is right, whereas, under the pressure of competitive, unregulated conditions, they were getting on the big winter ranges, and those are the seven big deserts of the l’nited States, in October. Now, we are limiting them to the 15th of November, and expect ultimately to reach the 1st of December or some reasonable date.

METHOD OF HANDLING APPLICATIONS FOR GRATING Mr. FitzPATRICK. How do they make their applications to use the range, or part of it?

Mr. CARPENTER. They file a form, on which they state what they own in property and livestock, and their livestock use.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Is each individual's application submitted in that way?

Mr. CARPENTER. Each individual's application is submitted, and it is first acted on by the local advisory board of stockmen, who make a recommendation

The (HAIRMAN. And they are the men who live right there, and know the people.

Vr. CARPENTER. That is right.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Then you would not accept any application until it was recommended by that organization? Is that correct?

Mr. CARPENTER. We have the authority to do that, and in some cases we have gone contrary to the recommendation of the local men, but in about 97 percent of the cases their recommendations on full consideration have been upheld. Occasionally

Mr. FITZPATRICK. But there are exceptions, where you do not adopt their recommendations?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Under what conditions do you make those exceptions?

Mr. CARPENTER. If we feel that the board has not properly followed the rules. Of course, they act under rules. They cannot make unlimited recommendations, and if we feel for any reason that they should be overruled, the regional grazier is authorized to do it, and in many cases does. However, the method of doing it is to assemble the board and to explain the reason, and in almost all cases, after a session or two, they reach an amicable agreement. There has been very little friction between these boards and the Department.

Mr. BURLEW. Then there is the right of appeal to the Secretary of the Interior also. Mr. Rich. May I ask a question? The CHAIRMAN. Oh, surely; at any time.

PRESENT NUMBER AND PROPOSED ADDITIONAL NUMBER OF FULL-TIME

EMPLOYEES

Mr. Rich. How many employees do you now have in the Department of the Interior in connection with this grazing work?

Mr. CARPENTER. Full time, not counting these local committees?
Mr. Rich. Yes.
Mr. CARPENTER. There are 76.

Mr. Rich. How many additional employees are you contemplating putting on under this bill for 1938?

Mr. CARPENTER. We contemplate increasing that number to 118.

Mr. Rich. Am I right in this assumption, that the grazing work of the Department of the Interior is limited to the winter grazing in the West by the cattle?

Mr. CARPENTER. For sheep pretty largely, too; 6,000,000 sheep and a million and a half cattle.

Mr. Rich. Then the Interior Department has charge of the lands that are used for winter grazing. Who has charge of the summer grazing? Mr. CARPENTER. The Forest Service.

The CHAIRMAN. That comes under the jurisdiction of the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. Rich. Then we have the grazing in the wintertime under the Department of Agriculture, and the grazing in the summertime under the Department of the Interior? Mr. CARPENTER. Just the reverse.

Mr. Rich. How many men does the Department of Agriculture have looking after the grazing interests in the summertime?

Mr. CARPENTER. I do not know, sir.

Mr. Rich. It would more than likely be a greater number than you have in the Interior Department, would it not? Mr. CARPENTER. I suppose so. The CHAIRMAN. Probably five times as many.

VALI'E OF COMBINING GRAZING ACTIVITIES

(See p. 94) Mr. Rich. I recall very distinctly that when this bill came up before the ('ommittee on Public Lands, Secretary Ickes, if I do not misquote him, was very much in favor of having the gra ing taken care of all in one department, both winter and summer. We were told in that committee that the President of the l'nited States was very much in favor of that, and he at that time had the power to place graving either in the Department of the Interior or the Department of Agriculture.

Would it not be more economical, Mr. ('arpenter, in your judgment, is the grazing were all handled in one department?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. RICH. And you would not need nearly as many employees to do this work, would you, if the grazing were all handled on one department?

Mr. CARPENTER. Well, tbere are rather different policies between the departments,

Mr. Rich. That is not the question. I am interested in knowing this, and I do not want to get into a controversy that may exist between the two departments, because I know that there is a lot of antagonism between your Department and the Department of Agriculture, but I am thinking now of the welfare of the grazing interests as well as the welfare of the people who have to pay the bills.

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rich. If we had these two divisions in the Department of the Interior, but under one supervision, would it not be handled much more economically so far as the grazing interests of the country are concerned?"

Mr. CARPENTER. I would think so; ves, sir.
The ('HAIRMAX. And more systematically, too?
Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rich. And it would be a whole lot better for the people who are immediately connected with this grazing on public lands, because ther would only have one set of men to deal with?

Mr. CARPENTER. ('ndoubtedly.

Mr. Rich. If I got this right, in the summertime the men whose cattle do the grazing on the public lands must go to the Department of Agriculture to get permits for this grazing?

Vir. CARPENTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. Rich. Then in the wintertime they must come to the Department of the Interior to get permits for the grazing that their cattle do

Mr. CARPENTIR. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr Rich. What recommendation would you make with a view to combining the grazing activities of our Nation? How can we get theup tuo departments together?

lir. ('ARPI: R. I think that ('ongrow has alreadı provided for that, wir, in the art. You will find in sertion 13 of the act that the Prodent of the l’nited States is authorized to put all of the lana chiccy valuable for gruzins in Interior, and tin ber lands in the Fort Service.

Jr. Rih. But we have gone on now for upserial scars since this art has been enarted, and we have not combined them.

Mr. CARPENTER. No.

Mr. Rich. Do you think that there is a possibility of getting them together?

Mr. CARPENTER. Well, sir, the power is given to the President. I could not say for him.

Mr. Rich. Then it is up to the President?
Mr. CARPENTER. It seems to me to be so.

The CHAIRMAN. Permit, me, Mr. Rich, to make this suggestion, that the Forest Service has held hearings and published a book of about 500 pages showing why they ought to have all of it, not only the forest reserves, but the public domain. On the other hand, the Secretary of the Interior has tried to show why he ought to have all of it, including the forest reserves. The two Departments have advanced their own positions rather vehemently, each one of them wanting to have exclusive jurisdiction over the grazing, and up to the present time they have come to no agreement about that matter.

Mr. Rich. May I ask the chairman this? We started with a $250,000 appropriation in 1936. Last year it went to $400,000, and now they want $550,000. If we keep this up, in 3 or 4 years they will be wanting an appropriation of $1,000,000.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that the gentleman can explain that to you.

Mr. CARPENTER. Of course, we are materially increasing the area under administration, Mr. Rich.

The CHAIRMAN. That first appropriation applied to 80,000,000 acres, and now we have 142,000,000 acres.

Mr. CARPENTER. The Forest Service has a grazing area of just a little over 80,000,000 acres, and we have already under our jurisdiction 110,000,000 acres.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Is there any fee paid to the Government in connection with this privilege?

Mr. CARPENTER. Oh, yes; the fees more than cover the amount of this appropriation.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Then there is no expense put on the taxpayer?

Mr. CARPENTER. Yes, because Congress returns half of the fees to the State.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Then the States get the benefit of it?
Mr. CARPENTER. That is correct.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have practically all of the districts organized that you contemplate organizing throughout those Western States?

Mr. CARPENTER. There are 49 at present. There may be possibly a few more wanted in Arizona but that is about the only State, and it is pretty general knowledge

EMPLOYMENT OF PRESENT PERSONNEL Mr. FITZPATRICK. What do your 76 permanent employees do in the summer time?

Mr. CARPENTER. We have year-round grazing, not only winter, but spring, summer, and fall, but the majority of our grazing is winter, and we are working in the summer in handling the spring, summer, and fall ranging, and also working on the applications for winter ranging.

The CHAIRMAN. They have to do a lot of work in preparing water for the stock, and in preparing drift fences to keep the stock from

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