We have six men in our office now working exclusively on land titles, who check those titles and prepare opinions showing the deficiencies which must be eliminated before the lands can be acquired. I am informed that within the next year the program for acquisitions of lands by the Indian Office is expected to double, and we will have that burden ahead of us to be met in part from an appropriation similar in size to that which we have now.

LAND ACQUISITION FOR NATIONAL PARK SERVICE

In connection with land acquisition for the National Park Service we also do a large amount of work. That Service has engaged in a comprehensive program of recreational development which has incident to it the acquisition of new areas. All of those titles also must clear through our office. I am informed that it is expected that the amount of that work also will increase materially, perhaps double, during the next year.

RESETTLEMENT RECREATIONAL ACTIVITY

Mr. SCRUGHAM. With reference to this resettlement recreational activity, does that come under your office, too?

Mr. KIRGIS. Yes; the resettlement recreational activity comes under our office, too. We do not know yet just how much that will involve. It is only of recent date that that activity has been transferred to the Park Service, but the legal work incident to that will be taken care of under this appropriation item. The exact amount of that legal work we do not yet know, although it is apt to be considerable.

NUMBER OF ATTORNEYS UNDER SOLICITOR'S OFFICE

Mr. SCRUGHAM. How many attorneys do you employ in the Solicitor's office?

Mr. KIRGIS. Do you mean here in Washington, or both in Washington and in the field?

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Those that would be paid from this appropriation. Mr. KIRGIS. Our total pay roll is 89. That includes attorneys, and also stenographers and clerks.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Yes. I do not know whether it is necessary to go into that further, but your entire legal staff is under the direction of the Solicitor, and all the legal work of the Interior Department is under the direction of the Solicitor?

Mr. KIRGIS. That is correct. I might explain this, that all attorneys on the permanent staff of the Department of the Interior are also paid from this appropriation item, with the exception that attorneys of the Bureau of Reclamation in the field are carried under the Reclamation appropriation, although they are subject to the administrative control and supervision of the Solicitor. All other permanent attorneys of the Department are carried in this appropriation item.

ATTORNEYS DETAILED TO BUT NOT PAID OUT OF APPROPRIATION FOR SOLICITOR'S OFFICE

Mr. SCRUGHAM. On page 72 of this proposed bill, under expenses of organizing Indian chartered corporations, I find, under "Professional services", one attorney, $4,000, and one attorney, $3,400. What does that come under?

139751-37-pt. 1—5

Mr. KIRGIS. That is correct. That is not under our appropriation. Mr. SCRUGHAM. That is not paid under your appropriation?

Mr. KIRGIS. That is right. Those are special attorneys employed by the Indian Office, and are, in fact, temporarily detailed to our office.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Then, they are not under your appropriation?

Mr. KIRGIS. No; to make my statement complete I should have excluded them also, although they are temporary and not a part of the permanent staff of the Department.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Also on page 88 I call your attention under the heading for the acquisition of lands, interest in lands, and so forth, for the Indian Service, they ask for assistant attorneys, four of them, at $2,600 salary.

Mr. KIRGIS. That is right. Those are four of the six whom I previously mentioned as working on the acquisition of lands. They are paid by the Indian Office and are temporary employees.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. These happen to be the only ones I have found. I do not know how many more there are, but there are six that I have found in this bill.

Mr. KIRGIS. May I refer to Mr. Stull to check on that, to see if those are the only ones so employed?

Mr. STULL. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. KIRGIS. The former two who are paid by the Indian Office are working on reorganization matters.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. What is the idea of spreading them around in this way? Why are they not carried under your Department?

Mr. KIRGIS. We do not have the appropriations necessary to carry them. I might explain to you that their positions are of a temporary character and that their work is exclusively on Indian reorganizations, whether it be actual organization work or work in connection with the acquisition of land for the reorganized Indian tribes.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Let me frame my question again: You stated that all attorneys employed in the Department of the Interior, in other words, all legal work was done under the direction of your office. Mr. KIRGIS. That is correct.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Why are they not shown under your office? Is there any reason for putting them in these comparaatively obscure places in the bill instead of setting them out with the general Budget appropriation? What is the reason for it?

Mr. KIRGIS. The difficulty in setting up those positions was that although it was necessary to employ those people to carry on this work, and there was no appropriation available to the Solicitor for that purpose and none could be secured.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. There was no Budget allowance.

Mr. KIRGIS. That is correct as to the Solicitor's allowance, but not as to the Indian Office allowance.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. There was no appropriation approved by the Appropriations Committee of Congress?

Mr. KIRGIS. That is right: That is, no appropriation to the Solicitor. Mr. SCRUGHAM. And you employed them anyway?

Mr. KIRGIS. The Indian Office did out of its appropriation for reor ganization purposes, and, as I said, these attorneys are directly chargeable to the Indian reorganization activities. Their work is exclusively in connection with that, although, being attorneys, they

are under the direction of the Solicitor of the Department of the Interior.

CIVIL SERVICE STATUS OF ATTORNEYS IN SOLICITOR'S OFFICE

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Are not these lawyers under civil service?

Mr. KIRGIS. Yes, sir; they are to a limited extent. They have civil-service ratings, and are subject to the Retirement Act, but not subject to competitive examination for appointment; they do not have permanency of tenure.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. In other words, they qualify on their applications?

Mr. KIRGIS. That is correct.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. And it is up to the Department to select whomever they feel is qualified for the position they desire to fill?

Mr. KIRGIS. Whoever is qualified; that is correct.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. As a matter of fact, do you not call your own men, and then have a civil-service rating given to them afterward? Is not that the practical way of handling the situation?

Mr. KIRGIS. May I defer to Mr. Stull in connection with that? Mr. SCRUGHAM. Yes; you may answer that, Mr. Stull.

Mr. STULL. For these attorneys of the minor class, like those in P-2 or P-3, we usually draw the names from the departmental list of applications.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. How many would you draw from the Commission's list?

Mr. STULL. Four or five at a time, or possibly eight or nine.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. How many lawyers have you in the Department altogether?

Mr. STULL. We have about 45 attorneys.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. How many were taken from civil service? Mr. STULL. I do not know how many. Most of them have been there longer than I have. I could not tell you, but I know we have employed some in the last year, and we had them certified to us.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Mr. Stull, you did not answer the question. Did you say you do not know? Is that your answer?

Mr. STULL. I say they have been there longer than I have.
Mr. SCRUGHAM. Your answer was you do not know?

Mr. STULL. No, sir; I do not know.

Mr. KIRGIS. We cannot give you the exact number of them, but I think, however, we can probably say that a slightly greater number have not been certified by the Civil Service Commission prior to their selection. However, those have not been given employment until they have been approved by the Civil Service Commission.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. They were approved by the Civil Service Commission?

Mr. KIRGIS. They were classified by the Civil Service Commission. Mr. FITZPATRICK. Classified but not approved?

Mr. KIRGIS. They were approved insofar as necessary for classification.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. That is right; they were classified by them.

Mr. KIRGIS. As I understand it, the Civil Service Commission looks into a man's legal qualifications, and they will not approve the appointment if, in its judgment, his qualifications do not qualify him for that rating.

Mr. STULL. That is correct. He must have training for the job for which he is selected.

Mr. KIRGIS. In other words, no one is put into a position unless the Civil Service Commission has made a determination that his qualifications are sufficient to justify his placement in that position. The Department has a list of qualified applicants, and from that we choose our men in many instances, but before a man is put upon the roll his qualifications are considered by the Civil Service Commission, and he is classified by that Commission.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Do you know of any case in your Department where you accepted a man and sent him to the Civil Service Commission and they disqualified him?

Mr. STULL. No, I do not know of any case.

Mr. KIRGIS. There was one, was there not, not long ago?

Mr. STULL. No.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. We are endeavoring to get some information as to how these attorneys are selected.

Mr. KIRGIS. Yes, sir.

METHOD OF SELECTING ATTORNEYS

Mr. SCRUGHAM. My impression is, and I wish to be corrected, if it is wrong, that you pick the men that you want, and then have them rated by the Civil Service Commission, and then have them submitted back to you. A man is not actually employed until finally submitted, and then you select the man that you want. In other words, you pick the men you want for these various positions. That is, whoever is the responsible officer in charge.

Mr. KIRGIS. In many instances that is correct.

The

Mr. SCRUGHAM. That is correct in many instances? Mr. KIRGIS. We go into a little more detail than that. Solicitor does not look around and find some one he wants, and then select him. He starts the machinery rolling by asking the proper departmental officers to certify to him a list of applicants. He has that list of applicants before him, and from that list the Solicitor, if he wants a new man, makes a selection, and then certifies the man selected to the Civil Service Commission for its consideration.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Does that certification go according to the date when the application was filed?

Mr. KIRGIS. Not necessarily. It may go according to the qualifications of the various applicants as they appear on the applications.

NUMBER OF ATTORNEYS IN OFFICE OF SOLICITOR

Mr. O'NEAL. I notice in the hearings of last year you had 67 attorHow many attorneys have you this year?

nevs.

Mr. KIRGIS. I do not have the number.

Mr. O'NEAL. You have more than 67 this year?

We

Mr. KIRGIS. We have less than 67 attorneys, I am quite sure. have a total of 89, which includes the clerical staff as well as the legal.

If you wish me to, I can count through this list and get the attorneys in just a moment. There are 38 in Washington.

Mr. O'NEAL. In your Department, or are some of those that you speak of paid for out of another appropriation?

Mr. KIRGIS. No, these are all paid out of this appropriation. Some of them are employed on the Solicitor's personal staff, and some of them are assigned to the various bureaus of the Department.

Mr. STULL. There are 18 in the field.

Mr. KIRGIS. Eighteen in the field. That is correct.
Mr. O'NEAL. They are all paid from your appropriation?
Mr. KIRGIS. All paid from our appropriation; yes, sir.
Mr. LAMBERTSON. Are all of them attorneys?

Mr. KIRGIS. Yes, sir; they are all attorneys.

Mr. LAMBERTSON. My recollection is last year it was admitted that all of those in the Solicitor's office were not attorneys. side of the clerical force.

That is, out

Mr. KIRGIS. I think that is incorrect. These men are all attorneys. I have here a copy of yesterday's pay roll, and that is what I have been counting from. The 38 attorneys in Washington are all qualified attorneys, and so are the 18 in the field. In addition to that, we have one law clerk, so-called, who is a graduate attorney, but not classified as an attorney. It is a clerkship which he has. We have stenographers, senior clerks, messengers, stenographer-clerks, assistant clerks, and two junior clerks. That is all. I can give you the exact numbers in those various categories, if you wish them.

Mr. O'NEAL. Now, on page 37 of the hearings of last year, Mr. Goodacre said:

At the close of the fiscal year, as well as at its beginning, the legal staff of the Department consisted of 67 attorneys serving in Washington and in the field under the jurisdiction of the Solicitor.

Now, are not all of those paid under this appropriation here, or does that include some other appropriation other than this that these attorneys would be included under? Of course, this was from the fiscal year 1935.

Mr. KIRGIS. I do not know what Mr. Goodacre had in mind, but from the form of the statement it might have included those paid from other appropriations.

Mr. O'NEAL. They were 67 attorneys then. Have you reduced it from 67 altogether to the number you have given here?

Mr. KIRGIS. I would question the correctness of Mr. Goodacre's figures. We have, I believe, reduced our staff of attorneys by two. Am I right, Mr. Stull?

Mr. STULL. Yes; two.

Mr. KIRGIS. Two, I think it is.

Mr. O'NEAL. By lapses and resignations?

Mr. KIRGIS. That is correct; yes.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. And you can reduce your appropriation by that amount?

Mr. KIRGIS. We cannot reduce it, because even with those reductions we are still running to the limit of our appropriation. In other words, we have had to depend upon lapses, furloughs, and leave without pay to stay within our appropriation.

ATTORNEYS IN OFFICE OF SOLICITOR PAID FROM FUNDS OF OTHER BUREAUS

Mr. SCRUGHAM. I may as well speak frankly on this. The Solicitor's Department goes to the Budget and makes certain applications, and makes certain showings?