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Mr. SCRUGHAM. Just a minute. That is a little bit unfair. Don't you realize that nearly half of that is for the operation and maintenance and buildings in the city of Washington, and I am quite certain that it includes all of the buildings and structures in Washington.

Mr. Rich. I am willing to have that put in the record, but I was thinking that it was only for these public parks.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. I am sure you do not mean to be unfair.

Mr. Rich. I certainly do not, but I was looking at this table on page 5, which gives the data with respect to the jurisdiction of the National Park Service.

Mr. DEMARAY. That includes the public buildings of the District of Columbia.

Mr. Rich. Then you might enlarge on that table, and give us what you paid 10 years ago, and what the increased expansion has been in public parks, and roads, what that increase would amount to.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. And at the same time insert the increase in the number of visitors.

Mr. DEMARAY. If I might confine it to the question of administration, maintenance, and operation of these parks, and use as an illustration the total appropriation for that purpose, in 1937 it was only $2,439,300. The balance of the $16,000,000 was for construction of roads and trails and the operation of buildings in the District of Columbia, and it is estimated that the annual revenue from the fees that we propose would amount to $1,468,450, or nearly one-half of the actual cost of administering and maintaining these parks.

Mr. Rich. Then you would receive about one-half of that amount? Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, sir. We exclude from this the capital expenditures, because eventually the park road system will be completed, the parkways which are authorized will be completed so that we can eventually count on being down to a purely maintenance and operation basis.

Mr. Rich. You charge a fee for use of the Sky Line Drive?

Mr. DEMARAY. That is in the Shenandoah Park, and that is estimated at $1. We have not established it as yet, but we are proposing it.

Mr. Rich. And when they put that Doughton Highway through from Smoky Mountain to the ShenandoahMr. DEMARAY. A fee will be charged for that.

Mr. Rich. What is the attitude of the Department of the Interior on that? Do they expect to continue that charge?

Mr. DEMARAY. Yes, sir. Mr. CAMMERER. These parks are scattered all over the United States, and there is no instruction of Congress in its statutes that fees must be charged in these areas, except in one instance, where there is a law that I remember

Mr. DEMARAY. Congress says that we shall not charge for camping.

Mr. CAMMERER. That was put in by your appropriations committees some years ago. The exaction of fees comes within the administrative power of the Secretary of the Interior, and from the beginning it was always discussed and frankly discussed with the members of this committee, and as the membership of the committee changed from year to year, there has always been the utmost frankness on our part as to what the fees should be, and in the early days even a $7.50 fee had the tacit approval of this committee. Then it was reduced to $5, and then to $3 in Yellowstone, and we always bring these matters up to show you what the Secretary of the Interior thinks is proper.

Mr. JOHNSON. How do the receipts from Yellowstone compare now with the receipts when you charged $5 or $7.50?

Mr. DEMARAY. The receipts, of course, are probably more today than they were when we were charging $7.50, because there are more visitors to the park.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Here is what I think is worth conveying in connection with these proposed fees, that there is no desire or plan to charge any human being for getting into the great outdoors and seeing these wonderful things of nature. The charge is made for the automobile's use of roads. I think that that distinction should be made very clear. It is a facility that the Government provides in the way of roads, whereby the automobile can go in very much more cheaply than any other form of travel. If they were going in by team, the usual method of former days, it would cost them five, six, or seven times as much.

Mr. LEAVY. Are any of these charges in any of the parks made on a per capita basis?

Mr. DEMARAY. The only per capita charge at the present time is for special guide service.

Mr. LEAVY. But the other charges are on the automobile or the conveyance?

Mr. DEMARAY. That is right.

EXPENDITURES FOR CIRCULARS CONTAINING INFORMATION REGARDING

PARKS

Mr. O'NEAL. What sort of a department do you have and how much money do you have to spend in that service for promotional work?

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Advertising?

Mr. O'NEAL. Yes. If these were private enterprises, just like a lot of things in Europe, where they attract hundreds of thousands of people, it would be made self-supporting. How much of an effort has been made along the line of what is being done by, say, Cook's Agency, or an organization of that kind?

Mr. CAMMERER. I am glad that you brought that up, because that is very important. The fact is that the travel movement is on, and with the shorter working hours coming, the people want to go to these places, and it is a fine sign that people are more and more able to get out into the open and see the beauties of their country. For instance, when they come to the national parks, they ought to have something, such as a circular like this, to tell them about the roads, something about the beauty of the surroundings, the geology, the flora, and the fauna.

Congress last year gave us $50,000 for all of our printing, not only of these pamphlets here, which are sent out by the thousands individually, to school children and others that ask for them, but are also given to the people that come to the parks-

Mr. Johnson. They are not sold?

Mr. CAMMERER. They are given, and before 2 weeks have expired, the supply is gone, and Mr. Demaray can give you the exact amount that we have spent for these circulars.

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What we really need is $125,000 immediately to do this work. I think that that is the figure.

RESTRICTIONS BY COMPTROLLER GENERAL ON ISSUANCE OF PARK

CIRCULARS (See p. 504)

Mr. DEMARAY. We would require $125,000 a year for promotional work, and we have $50,000 at the present time. We are handicapped to a greater extent now by a ruling of the Comptroller General, which has come out just recently, in which he has ruled that under the law which is quoted in his decision, the rotoprinting or multigraphing or similar processes cannot be used in getting out small circulars, as we have done, of this character (submitted samples of leaflets).

Mr. JOHNSON. On what grounds?

Mr. DEMARAY. These are the types of things that we were trying to get out. It is the only information of these areas available at all.

Mr. O'NEAL. This is fine, but what I had in mind was some announcement of what it costs, say, from Chicago to Yellowstone Park by automobile, and have that put some place where people will have the opportunity to see it. People do not generally know what the cost is at the parks, and they are a little afraid to start on such a trip.

It seems to me that we could very well afford to provide for a department of promotional activities, to get the American public to go to these parks.

Mr. CAMMERER. I think that that is a very fine idea, but you do not need another department. You have the biggest travel agency in the world right here in the National Park Service.

Mr. O'NEAL. I mean a department of your work.
Mr. CAMMERER. We do not have the money for it.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. I think that it is an outrage that you are stopped from multigraphing things like this. I know from my personal contact with these matters that it is one of the most useful things that you are doing, and if you will prepare the necessary language to cover that in this bill, I will present the matter to this committee, because I think that this is done cheaply and economically the way it is.

Mr. Rich. I do not think the Comptroller General wants to stop these people from publishing these things, but he wants to cause them to conform to the rules and regulations of the Joint Committee on Printing. Now, the fact of the matter is that they can get these things printed over at the Government Printing Office which we have established over there, which we have increased in size and made the largest printing office in the country for the purpose of doing the work of the Government, but these departments want to set up their own printing plants, and that is the reason why the Comptroller General is objecting.

Am I right?

Mr. DEMARAY. I might explain it in this way, that with $50,000 to do our printing, if we are going to get out information on all of the areas under our jurisdiction, it is necessary to resort to other means to provide for that printing.

Mr. Rich. That is just what the Joint Committee on Printing, of which I am a member, objects to. They think that they are able to

have DEMARAY: Forey require for lite time. The

and printed anently employeave the little illuser

do this work in the Government Printing Office, and why can you not have your printing done over there?

Mr. DEMARAY. For this reason, that the Department has a duplicating plant which they require for letters, and that sort of thing. Those people are not rushed all of the time. They are employed regularly. The employees of the Park Service can prepare this material, can type it, and can have the little illustrative blocks made by people permanently employed, and then they can be sent downstairs and printed without cost to the Department. If we send it to the Government Printing Office, we have to pay Government Printing Office prices, and when you have a very small appropriation, you certainly cannot get this work done. We have no objection to having all of the work done at the Government Printing Office, provided that Congress will make the necessary appropriation.

Mr. Rich. Congress makes the appropriation for the Government Printing Office and for your office. You want to get an authorization so that you can do the work. I will say to the chairman of this committee and to the members of the Park Service that if the Printing Department of this Government permits these various departments to do as some of them have done, you will have a printing department in every one of them. I am convinced, from my observation of the operation of the printing divisions of this Government, that that is the case.

Mr. Scrutham. This is not printing. This is what we call mimeographing or duplicating, and they have it done very economically, so what earthly reason can there be for sending these to the Government Printing Office, when the cost would be 10 times as much?

Mr. Rich. They would not be satisfied with that very long. They would want to have their own printing establishment.

Mr. LEAVY. I am very much in accord with the general statment of our colleague, Mr. Rich, that all of our Government printing should be done in the Government Printing Office here, and I think that it is a highly efficient establishment and it does its work extremely economically, but I wanted to ask a question or two concerning these pamphlets.

Do you get one out similar to this one that you have on the Hot Springs National Park for every national park that we have in the system?

Mr. DEMARAY. No, sir. We have never been able to print circulars for each one of our national parks. The reason that Hot Springs and the larger parks have pamphlets is that they have been in the system for a long time and they have had circulars for many years, and it is a lot easier, and cheaper, to revise those circulars than to get out wholly new ones.

Mr. CAMMERER. And we have not been able to meet more than one-tenth of the demand.

Mr. LEAVY. I was coming to that, to the demand for these circulars. Do you in any way give preference in the matter of demand to the school systems?

Mr. ČAMMERER. School children circulars?

Mr. LEAVY. I am not asking about school children. I am asking about school systems. That would be the superintendents or the heads of the schools.

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Mr. CAMMERER. The curious thing is that in the Washington office we get demands through the mail for these circulars from school children who want them in connection with their graduation subjects, their theses and things like that, and we are not able to meet the demand.

Mr. LEAVY. The purpose of my question was to suggest that if each school, or, say, class in geography, in the United States, could be supplied with a circular such as this with reference to the larger parks, not only would the educational value be manifest, particularly as to outdoor life, but you would likewise create a curiosity which would be a wholesome one and which would result in a tremendous increase in visits to these parks annually, and I am wondering if we could not expand that activity. Mr. DEVARAY. It would be a wonderful thing.

Mr. CAMMERER. The demand is tremendous for them, and we are not able to meet that demand. You remember that during the war days in the schools they took all of the pictures of the Kaiser and of foreign potentates off of the walls. We would like to get these things into the schools, and eventually those school children will be national park guests, and right on that subject I want to say in addition that the reason for these 180 requests for us to investigate national park possibilities throughout the country is not only because they recognize the educational value of these things, but it means a lot of money distributed throughout the country and in the neighborhoods where those national parks are. I well remember that south l'tah was absolutely dormant before our beloved Chief, Mr. Mather, went in there and developed those national parks, and now the people come in there and spend their money for gasoline and food and lodging, not only in the parks, but on the way to them. They buy oil and gas from local people, and they buy their groceries, and so forth, in the community, and that means a great deal. Mr. LEAVY. I think it is one of the finest of the public services.

Mr. CAMMERER. In the Smokies, last year, there have been 750,000 visitors there, and I counted cars from 29 States one Sunday down there, and you can just imagine what that travel means to the economic welfare of this country, and we ought to recognize it, because we are the great travel agency of the Government, that has been recognized by Congress to develop these things.

Mr. LEAVY. What do these pamphlets, like the one on Hot Springs National Park, cost when you put them out, by the thousands or ten thousands?

Mr. DEMARAY. Those are all printed at the Government Printing Office. We have no printing department ourselves. Of that Hot Springs circular, there were 25,000 copies printed, at a cost of $894.96, and on August 27 they were exhausted. In other words. the edition Was printed about this time of the year, and by the 27 August all of the copies were gone.

Mr. SCROGHAM. About 3 cents apiece.
Mr. LEAVY. If you increased that number to 2

ould the rate drop any? Would there be any reduction? Mr. DEMARAY. Oh, yes; the rate drops as the cos

embling and the plating of the pamphlet is absorb

ma

opies. Mr. Leavy. That is, if you had gotte

90 have gotten them for considerably less?

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