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Mr. LEAVY. But on Grand Coulee you are limited again, and can no longer spend P. W. A. money by reason of the limitation of Congress?

Secretary ICKES. That is right.

Mr. LEAVY. And that may be true of Central Valley. I am not familiar with the regulations.

Secretray Ickes. That is true of Central Valley.

Mr. LEAVY. Central Valley is a project that meets with your approbation and approval, and you recommend it to the committee?

Secretray ICKES. Oh, yes; absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. The main obstacle, Mr. Secretary, in carrying out these worthwhile measures is the vast quantity of money that it requires?

Secretary IcKES. Yes, sir; that is it.
The CHAIRMAN. And we cannot carry them all at once?
Secretary Ickes. That is true.
The ChaiRMAN. Each one has more or less to take its turn?
Secretary ICKES. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. At the present time there are some States getting comparatively nothing?

Secretary ICKES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, it is a question of cutting our garments according to our cloth somewhat?

Secretary ICKES. No; we cannot do them all at once; that is true.

The CHAIRMAN. And we do have to give respectful consideration to the estimates of the National Resources Committee and the Budget and the President himself, and the authorities that be, to systematize this enormous amount of work that we have laid, and which is in progress.



Mr. Rich. I was interested, Secretary Ickes, when I wrote you on February 25, in reference to the various organizations that have come into your Department, and those activities that have gone out of your Department, because I recall very definitely a year or so ago a statement that you made before the Public Lands Committee on conservation, and I am, in a measure, sympathetic with many of

your ideas.

In order to be brief I would like to insert in the record the emergency activities that were established in the Department as given to me in reply to this letter, if that is satisfactory to you.

Secretary Ickes. That is quite all right.

Mr. Rich. And also the new activities that were established in the Interior Department, and the list of activities that were transferred to the Interior Department.

Secretary Ickes. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. We usually put that in the record of the hearings. I think the last time we had 18 new activities.

Mr. Rich. They list some 20 new activities.

(The letters and the lists of activities referred to are as follows:)

FEBRUARY 25, 1937. Hon. HAROLD L. ICKES, Secretary of the Interior,

Washington, D. C. MY DEAR MR. ICKES: In order to give your Department the benefit of every possible consideration in connection with requested appropriation, I believe it would be very helpful if you would send me a list of agencies and bureaus under your departmental administration which have been created as emergency activities. Also, kindly note any new agencies or activities brought under your administration since your assumption of the secretaryship.

As one of the members of the subcommittee for the consideration of the Interior Department appropriation bill I think this information would be of value to me at this time. Thanking you in advance for same, I am, Very respectfully,



Washington, March 4, 1937. Hon. ROBERT F. Rich,

House of Representatives. My Dear Mr. Rich: In response to your request of February 25, I am glad to send you herewith a list of new activities brought under my supervision since assuming the office of Secretary of the Interior, and a list of the emergency activities established in this Department. Sincerely yours,


Secretary of the Interior,


1. Puerto Rico Reconstruction Administration.
2. Recreational demonstration projects in national parks.
3. Work camps in national parks.

4. Emergency conservation work in national parks, on Indian reservations, grazing areas, reclamation projects, territories, and island possessions, etc.

Secretary Ickes. The activities listed as 2, 3, and 4 are under the direction of regular agencies of the Department, but they operate as separate units thereunder. This list, of course, does not include emergency projects of the various bureaus and offices of the Department for which separate administrative units have not been established.


1. Division of Grazing, Office of the Secretary.
2. Division of Motion Pictures, Office of the Secretary.
3. Petroleum Conservation Division, Office of the Secretary.
4. Board of Indian Arts and Crafts.
5. National Bituminous Coal Commission.
6. Consumers' Counsel, of the National Bituminous Coal Commission.


To the Office of the Secretary 1. United States Geographic Board. 2. Administration of Puerto Rico.

Separate Bureau

3. Bureau of Mines.

To the National Park Service

4. Office of Public Buildings and Public Parks.
5. Arlington Memorial Bridge Commission.
6. Public Buildings Commission.
7. Agriculture Department Buildings (6 buildings).
8. Veterans' Administration Buildings (4 buildings).
9. Treasury Department Buildings (9 buildings).
10. National Monuments, Agriculture (16 monuments).
11. Abraham Lincoln National Monument.
12. National Military Parks, Battlefields, and Cemeteries (33 areas).
13. National Military Monuments (14 monuments).
14. National Memorial Commission.
15. Rock Creek and Potomac Parkway Commission.
16. Perry's Victory Memorial Commission.

To the Office of Education 17. Federal Board for Vocational Education.

For administration of expenditures 18. Commission of Fine Arts. 19. George Rogers Clark Sesquicentennial Commission. 20. Mount Rushmore National Memorial Commission.

In addition to the above, two new divisions, the Division of Investigations and the Division of Territories and Island Possessions, were established in the Office of the Secretary by the consolidation of activities already under the jurisdiction of the Department.


Mr. Rich. In the discussion a year ago in reference to grazing under the Taylor Act, the President, the Secretary of Agriculture, and the Secretary of the Interior had the power to consolidate the grazing lands of this country, but for some reason or other they did not act. I feel confident that I am quoting the Secretary of the Interior correctly when I say he was anxious that the grazing lands of this country be consolidated for the purpose of getting economy in operation and economy in handling grazing. Those three men no longer have that power, and it is up to Congress, as I understand it now, if it is going to be consolidated, to do so.

With the establishment at the present time in the Department of the Interior of the grazing activities, I can see where it is going to cost a lot of money if that Department is set up in the Department of the Interior. How can we, in some manner, have the grazing activities of the Department of Agriculture and those that are now being set up in the Interior Department put under one head for the purpose of efficiency and economy?

Secretary ICKES. If the President's Executive reorganization ideas are adopted by Congress, he would have the power to do that.

Mr. Rich. That takes us to the point where we have an investigation of Government activities in the Senate. We have a committee for consolidation. We had a committee in the House, and the President has established a committee.

Secretary Ickes. There is a joint committee that is considering the bill now, as I understand it.

Mr. Rich. I did not so understand.

Mr. LEAVY. That is right; a joint committee of the House and the Senate.

Secretary Ickes. Yes, a joint committee of the House and Senate.

Mr. Rich. Mr. Secretary, if there is a joint committee I am glad to know it.

Secretary ICKES. Yes; there is.

Mr. Rich. Is it possible to get that joint committee to take any action at this session of Congress?

Secretary ICKES. Well, I think the administration has hopes that it will. That was one of the first messages that the President sent up, asking for these powers.

Mr. Rich. I have been in Congress for 6 years, and it has been discussed every year, and we have never gotten any place with it. I know that you are a driver when you start to do something, and I was hoping you would get to the point where you could help drive this thing through.

Secretary ICKES. You and I have never disagreed as to the policy that should be adopted on the grazing situation, Congressman. It is not within my power.

Mr. Rich. What I want to try to do is to drive it home to the Members of Congress and my associates on this subcommittee that we might be of some service in trying to consolidate these grazing interests.

Secretary Ickes. I think to raise the question now apart from the consolidation act that the President is advocating might not be advantageous, and it raises a side issue which might help to defeat the general act.

Mr. Rich. You are hopeful, then, that we are going to get some place on this consolidation, are you?

Secretary Ickes. I am quite hopeful.



Mr. Rich. Now, Mr. Secretary, you have seen the increasing budget of the Federal Government in your Department, as well as in other departments. Looking at the thing as a whole, you have noticed the Treasury statements, and how fast our funds are being depleted, and how we are going into the red. What have you done in the Department of the Interior in the past year to try to cut down the expenses of your Department, and to increase your revenues in some manner in order that your Department may, if possible, come nearer to balancing the amount of outgo with the income that you expect to receive from it?

Secretary Ickes. It has taken not a little of my energy to fight off Members of Congress who want moratoria on our revenues.

Mr. Rich. Have you been able to hold them back?

Secretary Ickes. I have been quite a stumbling block. I have tried to be. Very frankly I have said to more than one Member of Congress, and that applies to both Houses, that I have not been able to see the justification for asking us to grant moratoria as to certain reclamation districts, for instance, when the reclamation districts have been as prosperous as they have been during the last few years. I think we frankly have to face that situation sooner or later. So far

as cutting down administrative expense is concerned, that is practically impossible when we are giving more service to you all the time.


Mr. Rich. As I see the requests here in the budget, instead of being more economical from the standpoint of spending, the requests are for increasingly large expenditures.

Secretary Ickes. It depends upon your definition of economy, If we are giving more service at a smaller ratio, we are being econonical and that, I think, we are doing.

Mr. Rich. I suppose every department would say the same thing, but how are you going to come to the point where you are going to receive funds enough to take care of the Government?

Secretary Ickes. I do not know, but I will say this to you, Congressman Rich, that if every member of Congress would studiously refrain from making requests for this, that, and the other thing on behalf of constituents, and I am not blaming them at all, because you have to do that, then we would not be under the pressure that we are under.

Mr. Rich. I have had a lot of requests from people in my district, and I have not come to you and asked for those things, because I knew it was not the sensible thing to do.

Secretary Ickes. If you lived in the West, you would, and you ought to.



Mr. Rich. Mr. Secretary, you spoke about conservation and the great amount of timber that we have in Alaska.

Secretary Ickes. Yes,

Mr. Rich. Last year in the Public Lands Committee they spoke of the great amount of pulpwood that we have available in Oregon, and we talked about some of the tracts of timber out there. Is it your idea that we could get enough pulpwood in Alaska and from the reservations in this country to meet the needs of the paper-manufacturing industry, so that we can be self-supporting in that industry?

Secretary Ickes. I do not know whether the timber out there is suitable for making it into paper. Does any one know?

Mr. BURLEW. That was developed before the committee here earlier in the hearings.


Secretary IcKES. Mr. Burlew and Mr. Collier say it is. Then it would be a question of developing it.

Mr. Rich. Mr. Secretary, information has been placed in the record both in this committee and the Public Lands Committee showing that we have available enough pulpwood in the States of Oregon and Washington and in the Territory of Alaska to supply all the paper mills in this country with pulpwood. If that is the case, should we not develop our own resources and furnish these materials ourselves rather than import them from Russia, Scandinavia, and other foreign countries?

Secretary Ickes. Yes; and that is what we are trying to do to the fullest possible extent in the Department of the Interior.

139751-37-pt. 1


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