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I may say that due to the amount of emergency money that ha been given to the Interior Department, and the large expenditure under Public Works, which are also handled by this division-we usi that Division to make purchases for both P. W. A. and Interior-th work has increased to a point that could not previously have been estimated.

Mr. Rich. Then this is necessary in connection with the project under P. W. A., but it does not affect the purchases that are supposed to be made by the Procurement Division, does it?

Mr. BURLEW. You see, the President's Executive order of 1933 pro vided for a consolidation of the purchasing agencies, but the Procure ment Division has never been able to take over these individual pur chasing offices probably because of the tremendous amount of purchas ing due to emergency funds.

Mr. Rich. Does your branch of the Government, the Interior De partment, function with the Procurement Division?

Mr. Burlew. To some extent, but mainly independently of it. I we want to buy an automobile, we issue our own specifications and advertisement, and we make the award.

Mr. Rich. Why do you not function under the Procurement Division, the same as the other agencies?

Mr. BURLEW. All of the others do not. Very few of them do, in fact.

SELF-LIQUIDATING ASPECTS OF RECLAMATION PROJECTS Mr. FITZPATRICK. Mr. Rich made a statement to the effect that the money appropriated by the United States Treasury for self liquidating projects, such as reclamation projects, is not returned. 1 understand that it is returned.

Mr. BU'RLEW. Yes; it is returned.
Mr. FITZPATRICK. To the Treasury?
Mr. BIRLEW. To the Treasury.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. And the taxpayers do not lose any money on those self-liquidating projects, as a rule, do they?

Mr. BURLEW. That is right, for that money cannot be used as a revolving fund. It has to be appropriated by Congress.

Mr. FitzPATRICK. Yes. It goes back into the Treasury of the l'nited States.

Mr. Rich. I might say to the gentleman that when he checks up on the amount of money that we have in these reclamation projects he will be surprised to find what a small amount, in comparison to what we spend, comes back.

Mr. FirzPATRICK. But time will tell whether or not it will all come back. You cannot expect it to come back immediately if it is intended to run for a period of 20, 30, or 40 years.

Mr. LEAVY. Just one question. That money that is returned on these reclamation projects and these other self-liquidating projects is not necessarily returned as a credit against the money that was spent on the project, but it is recovered back into the l'nited States Treasury is it not?

Mr. BURLEW. Into the reclamation fund and it must be appro. priated from the reclamation fund before it can be spent again. In the case of projects started and built by emergency funds, the repay. ments will go direct to the general fund in the Treasury unless Con. otherwise directs by statute. In the early days of reclamation, purse, it was merely a matter of building a dam to control the flow water, but within recent years, through power developments, ramation has been made much more feasible as far as the Governat is concerned, because usually when you build a reclamation -port you have a power plant which sells power to the settlers on : project as well as to others, which brings in very large revenues. : gumber of the new projects are self-liquidating through the sale of 2 er, and that gives additional assurance to the Government that it il get its money back. MRich. What proportionate amount of money from these proj

thet are self-liquidating have you recovered in the past 4 years? Vir BIRLEW. I could not tell you, Mr. Rich, but the officials of o Reclamation Bureau, when they appear before you, will have - Sgures for you.

Vr. STRUGHAM. Let me repeat that if it is entirely agreeable, it - to me that we are needlessly burdening the record by discussing at matter at this time. So, if it is entirely agreeable, this portion the inquiry can be deferred. Are there any further questions of Mr. Burlew? If not, we will rred to another item.

ASSISTANT EXAMINER FOR CLASSIFICATION DIVISION On page 3 of the justification, there is a provision for an assistant plazainer at $2,600 for the Classification Division. Will the result of

appointment be to cut down salaries, or to increase them? V: BURLEW. It will result in an equitable allocation of salaries, I

di say. Mr SCRIGHAM. Will there be any saving to the Government by w of the employment of this additional man? Mr. BrRLEW. I should not say directly, except that we cannot do * work now without these additional people. This Classification *sjon 4 years ago consisted of one man who classified all of the

* jobs before the appointments were made and sent the classifica%0 to the Civil Service Commission for approval. Then the mergency agencies came into existence, and we consolidated our

afiration work in P. W. A. with this Division. We now have 17 mapovers in the Division, and I will say this in answering your

astion, that if we had not classified these jobs conscientiously for * P. V. A., we would have spent probably millions more than we 'ste been spending for salaries in the P. W. A. They had no con"ping of what the average Government salary was. By feeding all ! their jobs through the Classification Division, we have saved a lot

money, because the law did not require that those appointments s'uld be made through the Civil Service. The law relieved them wa being classified by the Civil Service Commission, so we set up E n Classification Division; we also set up a minature Civil Serv

Commission in my office, with examiners borrowed from the Civil vice Commission, to pass upon the qualifications of the applicants. Mr. SretGHAM. I understand that this one assistant examiner st 24 being provided for is already in the service, but is being paid Ihr some other fund? Mr.BrRLEW. No; this would be an additional man.

19751--37-pt. 1- 3

Mr. SCRUGHAM. In addition to the 17 employees, making 18 employees in all?

Mr. BURLEW. Yes; that is right. But we only have two regular employees on the Interior Department roll on this work. As a matter of fact, we have been doing a lot of Interior Department classification at the expense of Public Works.

have been is subject to curement Divisein

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PURCHASING OFFICE Mr. SCRUGHAM. On page 4 of the justification there is an item called "Purchasing office, $14,440.” Does this purchasing office buy the supplies for the field as well as for the Department here?

Mr. BURLEw. It purchases supplies for the field, for the Department here, as well as for Public Works.

We are asking for a total of 52 employees, but actually we have 100 P. W. A. employees in that division, in addition to the ones that we are asking for here.

Mr. O'NEAL. Do they buy much gasoline?

Mr. BURLEW. That is purchased usually through contract. We do buy a lot of gasoline.

Mr. O'NEAL. Have you any idea what you pay for it? Mr. BURLEW. No; I do not. Mr. O'NEAL. Who would have that information? Mr. BURLEW. The Procurement Division might give you that. NotE.--Under Procurement Division contracts for the District of Columbia the price is subject to change every 3 months. For the present fiscal year prices have been as follows: First quarter.

$0. 0917 Second quarter---Third quarter.---

- 0944 Fourth quarter.

0974 Mr. O'NEAL. I am talking about your Department.

Mr. BURLEW. We buy usually under departmental contract or Procurement Division contract.

Mr. O'NEAL. They do some purchasing for you, then?

Mr. BURLEW. That is, we take advantage of their contracts, if any.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Let me make this clear: Does the Treasury Department in any way duplicate the work of the purchasing agency in the Interior Department?

Mr. BURLEW. None whatever. We are operating practically independently of the Procurement Division,

Mr. SCRUGHAM. But you avail yourself of the various opportunities for purchases at quantity prices which may be negotiated by the Procurement Division?

Mr. BURLEW. That is right.

Mr. ScrUGHAM. And by that means you get lower prices because of the larger volume of purchases?

Mr. BURLEW. That is right.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. And wherever possible, you utilize that set-up of the Procurement Division for the purposes that I just mentioned?

Mr. BURLEW. There is no question but that we do; yes, sir.

Mr. Rich. In that connection, you get copies of the contracts that are made by the Procurement Division, showing the prices, and then your own purchasing office does the purchasing for your Department? Mr. BURLEW. That is right. We use the general supply schedule, and there are certain contracts made which we can avail ourselves of.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Otherwise, do you regulate whatever prices you may have to pay?

Mr. BURLEW. If we do not buy from the general supply schedule, we get bids on whatever we need above $100.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. That is what I mean.
Mr. BURLEW. That is right.



Mr. O'NEAL. If this committee felt that it were absolutely essential to practice economy until it hurts, in what department or what line of your Department could a substantial cut be made which would be the least felt?

Mr. BURLEW. I may say

Mr. O'NEAL. In other words, what part of your work is probably a little passé, or is not so important, or is not needed so much as it may have once been or as was once believed?

Mr. BURLEW. Speaking of the whole Department, I would not be able to answer that unless I made a very careful check. As to the Secretary's office and the various activities under it, they have just recently, many of them, come into being, and have grown from a small organization, so that I do not think that there is any waste there.

Mr. O'NEAL. I was referring to the entire Interior Department. I understand that you have executive control over it, that you are the budget director of it.

Mr. BURLEW. That is right. That would be a matter of policy, Mr. O'Neal. In the first place, it would be a matter of acquiring information that I have not now, and it would involve a matter of policy as to what activities the Secretary might feel should in that event be reduced.

Mr. O'NEAL. Is it not true that very often one department ceases to be needed quite so much as it was needed at the time that it was created? In other words, there are changes that occur that from an executive standpoint should be looked into and economies effected where the work has decreased or the need for the work has decreased, and on the other side there may be instances where the work has increased.

Mr. BURLEW. My experience is that in Government activities rarely decrease.

Mr. O'NEAL. That is a defect in Government.
Mr. BURLEW. They are self-promotional.

Mr. O'NEAL. That is the reason that I asked the question, to try to correct something of that sort.

Mr. BURLEW. It depends on what service the Government is going to render to the public. There is more and more demand for the Government to render service; and if we are going to keep abreast of those demands, we must do it.

A number of years ago we decreased the General Land Office, thinking that their work was dying out. We now find that other things have come up which have taken the place of the functions that they

used to perform, that were no longer needed, and the General Land Office today is very much behind in its work. A simple thing like the withdrawal of public lands dumped thousands of cases into the General Land Office to adjudicate, and various instances of that kind occur which change the character of an activity, but they do not diminish its work.

Mr. O'NEAL. I think that the public is badly spoiled, Mr. Burlew, and I think that we have got to do something about it. I do not know where it can be started, or whether very much can be changed, but it does seem to me that every department, as far as it can, should recommend that certain work be dispensed with or reduced where the interest of the Government, from the standpoint of economy, is at stake.

In all of the Appropriations Committee meetings in which I have sat, I have never yet heard anyone come up and say that they felt that their work is not worth the money that they are putting into it, and that they think it is in the interest of the country to cut it out. I think that it would be a very happy day when we get to the point where we could get that point of view.


Mr. SCRUGHAM. We come next to the Division of Investigations, which is somewhat a continuation of this discussion. That will be found on page 10 of the bill and on page 9 of the justification.

(The item covering this activity, and the justification therefor, are as follows:)

For investigating official matters under the control of the Department of the Interior; for protecting timber on the public lands, and for the more efficient execution of the law and rules relating to the cutting thereof; for protecting public lands from illegal and fraudulent entry or appropriation; for adjusting claims for swamplands and indemnity for swamplands; and for traveling expenses of agents and others employed hereunder, $436,100, including not exceeding $30,500 for personal services in the District of Columbia; not exceeding $40,000 for the purchase, exchange, operation, and maintenance of motor-propelled passenger-carrying vehicles and motorboats for the use of agents and others employed in the field service; and not to exceed $5,000 to meet unforeseen emergencies of a confidential character, to be expended under the direction of the Secretary of the Interior, who shall make a certificate of the amount of such expenditure as he may think it advisable not to specify, and every such certificate shall be deemed a sufficient voucher for the sum therein expressed to have been expended.



This appropriation is required to conduct the regular investigative work of the Division of Investigations.

The Division of Investigations is entrusted with the duty of keeping the Department, its bureaus, offices, and divisions, advised of the condition of various activities; of the investigation of all matters relating to alleged violations of law; of cooperation with the Department cf Justice in the prosecution of cases affecting the Department of the Interior; the auditing of accounts of concessionaires in national parks; and such other work as has been carried on by investigators of the several bureaus prior to the consolidation of this work in one division.

A total increase of $44,400 is requested to cover additional personnel in the central office of the Division on the Department pay roll in the amount of $7,000; the establishment of a headquarters field office in Washington in the amount of $11,300; and an increase in the field service in the four western field divisions in the amount of $26,100.

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