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Mr. Burlew. There is no question about that. Take the Indian Service, where we are building a lot of hospitals and schools. It will take an increased amount of course to maintain them. Where we build roads under emergency funds, it will require additional money to maintain those roads. In the case of reclamation projects, when that money has been expended, it is an allotment from the Public Works Administration to the Bureau of Reclamation for specific projects, and those projects are usually self-liquidating, and I do not think it is going to increase the budget of the Bureau of Reclamation for administrative expense materially at all insofar as the net result to the Department is concerned as the administration is included in the cost of the project to be repaid by the water users.

Mr. Rich. They probably are intended to be self-liquidating, and I want to say personally that this is all new to me, and I am only interested in trying to keep down Government expenses, because I see what is going to happen ultimately; we are going to find ourselves with such a top-heavy load that we are going to break down of our own weight. So my motive is not to criticize, but to get the information that I think is necessary, the information that I think ought to be known so that we can function in the future.

When I think of these vast enterprises that we have established, and of the money that is supposed to be returned, it occurs to me that this money comes back to your Department earmarked as Reclamation Service money, which in turn you can appropriate without its having to go back into the Federal Treasury.

Mr. Bttrlew. I do not quite understand that we do that. For instance, on the Boulder Dam project, which is one of the largest that has been completed, that is self-liquidating through the sale of power, and there is no question but what that will pay out. In the case of the Central Valley, a new project being started through emergency funds, that will later require regular appropriations, without any question but it will be self-liquidating.

Mr. Rich. That Central Valley is located where?

Mr. Burlew. Central Valley is located in California.

Mr. Scrugham. May I interrupt a minute? This is a subject that should be discussed under "Reclamation," and, in your opinion, would it not be better to take it up then?

Mr. Rich. I agree with you. The only point that I want to bring out now is that I take it that Mr. Burlew is acting for Mr. Ickes, and I do not want Mr. Burlew to say anything that might get him in trouble with his superior officers, and if it is embarrassing to him I will ask Mr. Ickes when he comes. But what I want to find out is, in your judgment, what increase in your appropriation is going to be required, we will say next year or in the following year, because of the activities that we are going into? Would you care to venture an opinion on that?

Mr. Burlew. I could not even guess that, Mr. Rich. It is so intermingled with the activities of the Department that we would have to make a very careful check through the Department in order to answer that.

Mr. Rich. But it will be quite a substantial sum?

Mr. Burlew. I should think so. When you consider that for 4 years we have had many worthwhile projects completed and under way which will require increased maintenance, there is no question about that.


Mr. Rich. So far as your new set-up is concerned, in connection with that new building for your Department, you are asking for a great many new positions, and I do not know whether this building is going to be big enough to house your Department for long.

Mr. Burlew. I will say that with the allocation of the space already made, we are full.

Mr. Rich. You are full now?

Mr. Burlew. When we move in, we will occupy every available amount of space.

Mr. Rich. Are you able to put into that new building all of the departments that ought to come under the Secretary of the Interior?

Mr. Burlew. Yes; except that we did not provide for the Geological Survey, which has special quarters in the old Interior Building. They have large printing presses with special foundations, so we did not go to the expense of providing for it.

Mr. Rich. Are you going to maintain the old Interior Building also?

Mr. Burlew. Yes, sir. ; Mr. Rich. Then the fact of the matter is that two buildings will be required to take care of the Interior Department?

Mr. Burlew. No. Most of the old building will be occupied by the P. W. A.

Mr. Rich. What part of the old building is used by the P. W. A., or will be?

Mr. Burlew. I should say that four-fifths of it will go to the P. W. A. In other words, we will just have one wing for the Geological Survey. The rest of the building practically will be for the P. W. A.

Mr. Rich. Then you will have four-fifths of the old building that will be available for the expansion of the Department of the Interior, with the new building completely filled?

Mr. Burlew. Provided P. W. A. gradually decreases its staff, which I assume it will, because the P. W. A. staff will fill the old Interior Building, plus the Geological Survey staff.

We have the two buildings connected with a tunnel under the parkway.


Mr. Rich. I would like to ask one more question in reference to the purchasing office, and to the increase that is made there. This statement is made in the justification [reading]:

Under the economy program of 1933 many positions of the purchasing office were left unfilled and the positions were subsequently dropped from the rolls. Since that time there have been no additions to the staff through regular appropriations. The work of the office, on the other hand, has increased tremendously as a result of the transfer and consolidation cf various activities under the Department.

I thought that when we had consolidated these various purchasing agencies, that the expense was going to be diminished.

Mr. Burlew. Of course, the purchasing office is a service agency, and we have, I believe, some 14 activities transferred to the Interior Department, and their purchasing is done by this centralized purchasing office.

I may say that due to the amount of emergency money that ha been given to the Interior Department, and the large expenditure under Public Works, which are also handled by this division-we usi that Division to make purchases for both P. W. A. and Interior-th work has increased to a point that could not previously have been estimated.

Mr. Rich. Then this is necessary in connection with the project under P. W. A., but it does not affect the purchases that are supposed to be made by the Procurement Division, does it?

Mr. BURLEW. You see, the President's Executive order of 1933 pro vided for a consolidation of the purchasing agencies, but the Procure ment Division has never been able to take over these individual pur chasing offices probably because of the tremendous amount of purchas ing due to emergency funds.

Mr. Rich. Does your branch of the Government, the Interior De partment, function with the Procurement Division?

Mr. Burlew. To some extent, but mainly independently of it. I we want to buy an automobile, we issue our own specifications and advertisement, and we make the award.

Mr. Rich. Why do you not function under the Procurement Division, the same as the other agencies?

Mr. BURLEW. All of the others do not. Very few of them do, in fact.

SELF-LIQUIDATING ASPECTS OF RECLAMATION PROJECTS Mr. FITZPATRICK. Mr. Rich made a statement to the effect that the money appropriated by the United States Treasury for self liquidating projects, such as reclamation projects, is not returned. 1 understand that it is returned.

Mr. BU'RLEW. Yes; it is returned.
Mr. FITZPATRICK. To the Treasury?
Mr. BIRLEW. To the Treasury.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. And the taxpayers do not lose any money on those self-liquidating projects, as a rule, do they?

Mr. BURLEW. That is right, for that money cannot be used as a revolving fund. It has to be appropriated by Congress.

Mr. FitzPATRICK. Yes. It goes back into the Treasury of the l'nited States.

Mr. Rich. I might say to the gentleman that when he checks up on the amount of money that we have in these reclamation projects he will be surprised to find what a small amount, in comparison to what we spend, comes back.

Mr. FirzPATRICK. But time will tell whether or not it will all come back. You cannot expect it to come back immediately if it is intended to run for a period of 20, 30, or 40 years.

Mr. LEAVY. Just one question. That money that is returned on these reclamation projects and these other self-liquidating projects is not necessarily returned as a credit against the money that was spent on the project, but it is recovered back into the l'nited States Treasury is it not?

Mr. BURLEW. Into the reclamation fund and it must be appro. priated from the reclamation fund before it can be spent again. In the case of projects started and built by emergency funds, the repay. ments will go direct to the general fund in the Treasury unless Con. otherwise directs by statute. In the early days of reclamation, purse, it was merely a matter of building a dam to control the flow water, but within recent years, through power developments, ramation has been made much more feasible as far as the Governat is concerned, because usually when you build a reclamation -port you have a power plant which sells power to the settlers on : project as well as to others, which brings in very large revenues. : gumber of the new projects are self-liquidating through the sale of 2 er, and that gives additional assurance to the Government that it il get its money back. MRich. What proportionate amount of money from these proj

thet are self-liquidating have you recovered in the past 4 years? Vir BIRLEW. I could not tell you, Mr. Rich, but the officials of o Reclamation Bureau, when they appear before you, will have - Sgures for you.

Vr. STRUGHAM. Let me repeat that if it is entirely agreeable, it - to me that we are needlessly burdening the record by discussing at matter at this time. So, if it is entirely agreeable, this portion the inquiry can be deferred. Are there any further questions of Mr. Burlew? If not, we will rred to another item.

ASSISTANT EXAMINER FOR CLASSIFICATION DIVISION On page 3 of the justification, there is a provision for an assistant plazainer at $2,600 for the Classification Division. Will the result of

appointment be to cut down salaries, or to increase them? V: BURLEW. It will result in an equitable allocation of salaries, I

di say. Mr SCRIGHAM. Will there be any saving to the Government by w of the employment of this additional man? Mr. BrRLEW. I should not say directly, except that we cannot do * work now without these additional people. This Classification *sjon 4 years ago consisted of one man who classified all of the

* jobs before the appointments were made and sent the classifica%0 to the Civil Service Commission for approval. Then the mergency agencies came into existence, and we consolidated our

afiration work in P. W. A. with this Division. We now have 17 mapovers in the Division, and I will say this in answering your

astion, that if we had not classified these jobs conscientiously for * P. V. A., we would have spent probably millions more than we 'ste been spending for salaries in the P. W. A. They had no con"ping of what the average Government salary was. By feeding all ! their jobs through the Classification Division, we have saved a lot

money, because the law did not require that those appointments s'uld be made through the Civil Service. The law relieved them wa being classified by the Civil Service Commission, so we set up E n Classification Division; we also set up a minature Civil Serv

Commission in my office, with examiners borrowed from the Civil vice Commission, to pass upon the qualifications of the applicants. Mr. SretGHAM. I understand that this one assistant examiner st 24 being provided for is already in the service, but is being paid Ihr some other fund? Mr.BrRLEW. No; this would be an additional man.

19751--37-pt. 1- 3

Mr. Scrugham. In addition to the 17 employees, making 18 employees in all?

Mr. Burlew. Yes; that is right. But we only have two regular employees on the Interior Department roll on this work. As a matter of fact, we have been doing a lot of Interior Department classification at the expense of Public Works.


Mr. Scrugham. On page 4 of the justification there is an item called "Purchasing office, $14,440." Does this purchasing office buy the supplies for the field as well as for the Department here?

Mr. Burlew. It purchases supplies for the field, for the Department here, as well as for Public Works.

We are asking for a total of 52 employees, but actually we have 100 P. W. A. employees in that division, in addition to the ones that we are asking for here.

Mr. O'neal. Do they buy much gasoline?

Mr. Burlew. That is purchased usually through contract. We do buy a lot of gasoline.

Mr. O'neal. Have you any idea what you pay for it?

Mr. Burlew. No; I do not.

Mr. O'neal. Who would have that information?

Mr. Burlew. The Procurement Division might give you that.

Note.—Under Procurement Division contracts for the District of Columbia the price is subject to change every 3 months. For the present fiscal year prices have been as follows:

First quarter $0. 0917

Second quarter . 0914

Third quarter 0944

Fourth quarter . 0974

Mr. O'neal. I am talking about your Department.

Mr. Burlew. We buy usually under departmental contract or Procurement Division contract.

Mr. O'neal. They do some purchasing for you, then?

Mr. Burlew. That is, we take advantage of their contracts, if any.

Mr. Scrugham. Let me make this clear: Does the Treasury Department in any way duplicate the work of the purchasing agency in the Interior Department?

Mr. Burlew. None whatever. We are operating practically independently of the Procurement Division.

Mr. Scrugham. But you avail yourself of the various opportunities for purchases at quantity prices which may be negotiated by the Procurement Division?

Mr. Burlew. That is right.

Mr. Scrugham. And by that means you get lower prices because of the larger volume of purchases?

Mr. Burlew. That is right.

Mr. Scrugham. And wherever possible, you utilize that set-up of the Procurement Division for the purposes that I just mentioned?

Mr. Burlew. There is no question but that we do; yes, sir.

Mr. Rich. In that connection, you get copies of the contracts that are made by the Procurement Division, showing the prices, and then your own purchasing office does the purchasing for your Department?

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