Mr. RICH. Now, taking the projects in this list that you have started and which you claim are authorized by Congress, and taking the number of projects that have been started under emergency fund allotment and the P. W. A. allotment, will you give us the total acreage that you contemplate putting into production when these projects are completed? Mr. PAGE. That already has been inserted. Mr. LEAVY. Perhaps you mean new lands. Mr. PAGE. That is included in the above table. Mr. RICH. You gave us comparative crop results on Government projects for the year 1935 and 1936. Was that put in the record? Mr. PAGE. Yes, sir. Mr. RICH. Then this is the total value of the crops on reclamation projects that are already under the supervision of the Government? Mr. PAGE. That is the total of crops raised in 1935 and 1936 on all reclamation projects, Warren Act lands excluded. Mr. RICH. Can you give us the total cost to the Government of the reclamation projects, and the amounts that have been returned to the Federal Treasury from these projects? Mr. PAGE. That is included in previous statements. ACCRETIONS TO THE RECLAMATION FUND AND COLLECTIONS Mr. RICH. And then the amount of reappropriations, to show that all the money that has been turned back to the Federal Treasury has been spent out again by these Federal reclamation projects, because in reading the justifications and the data that I had yesterday on the train, I find that practically all of the money that is supposed to be turned back in the Treasury has already been reallocated. 139751-37-pt. 1-13 Mr. PAGE. That was the fundamental theory of the plan, that a revolving fund was established, and appropriations have been made from that revolving fund as fast as the money came in. Mr. RICH. You also had a fund for lands on reclamation projects. that were sold, that were not of any value to the Interior Department. and the moneys that were accumulated were turned back for reclamation development in western lands? Mr. PAGE. Yes, sir. The basic law said that the reclamation fund should be composed of moneys received from the sales of public lands in the Western States. Mr. RICH. All of those lands have been sold, and you will have no source of revenue from the sale of lands since the Government has taken them over under the Taylor Grazing Act? Mr. PAGE. No. There are almost none for sale at this time. They are nearly all withdrawn under the Taylor Grazing Act, and the demand for the remaining public lands is very light. Mr. RICH. Now, in recent years you have made allocations of funds to those reclamation projects from the lease of mineral lands and o lands, and you have received quite a great deal of revenue from that Mr. PAGE. Yes. Mr. RICH. But the statement is made by the Interior Department to the effect that they are not going to make many oil leases in the future, so that your revenues are going to be cut down very materially from that source? Mr. PAGE. These revenues have dropped from approximately $9,000,000 down to approximately $2,000,000. I will put into the record, if you wish, a statement as to all the accruals from the begin ning of the reclamation fund, from all sources. (The tables referred to are as follows:) Accretions to the reclamation fund from June 17, 1902, to June 30, 1936 Accretions to the reclamation fund from June 17, 1902, to June 30, 1936-Continued C 1916. $244, 736. 14 543, 830. 26 774,436, 28 1,842, 803, 99 2, 173, 276, 59 2,485, 271.90 2,395, 683. 10 2,772, 718. 97 2,427, 943.30 2, 391, 397.34 3, 244, 733. 38 3, 581, 427. 12 3,972, 949, 65 4, 506, 179. 62 4, 248, 273. 06 4,313, 152. 42 5, 151, 985. 26 5,749, 575, 03 7, 156, 957. 34 6, 601, 667. 17 5, 555, 407.58 6, 127, 220. 36 7, 321, 697. 89 6, 013, 672. 27 7,409, 723. 84 3,434, 053. 46 2,449, 166. 94 2, 301, 853. 15 1 Miscellaneous collections include water rentals, sales of power and light, rentals from grazing and farming lands, sale of surplus materials and supplies, penalties on construction charges, contributed funds, etc. * Adjustments. Mr. RICH. Does your list include the return from mineral lands, also? Mr. PAGE. Yes, sir; it includes everything. DECREASE IN REVENUES ACCRUING TO RECLAMATION FUND FROM PUBLIC LANDS Mr. RICH. Mr. Page, from your knowledge of the Interior Department lands under your supervision, what sources of revenue are you going to have from these public lands now that you have not had before? How are you going to receive revenues from these public lands in order to conduct the affairs of the Interior Department? Are they going to decrease or increase? Mr. PAGE. The revenues accruing to the reclamation fund from the public lands have almost ceased. The grazing fees which are collected under the Taylor Grazing Act are distributed primarily to the States, and the reclamation fund does not participate in those revenues. Mr. RICH. So that we have practically used up all of the opportunity that we have to receive from the public lands any revenues so far as the Federal Treasury is concerned? Mr. PAGE. The Congress has seen fit to handle the public lands in a different way than originally. Conservation now is the watchword. That in itself has decreased the revenues which under the original act would come to the Bureau of Reclamation. Mr. RICH. Then would you have any idea as to how revenues could be received from the Federal public lands, in order to be used for further development? Mr. PAGE. That is a matter that has given us considerable concern, but we have not arrived at a solution by which we can anticipate any additional revenue of consequence to the reclamation fund. The present policy of supervision and control of public lands and of oil production, which has decreased the revenue, is a good one. I am not critizing it, but I do point out that reclamation fund accretions are affected by it. There is only one possibility that I know of for augmenting the accretion to the fund, and that is by including the oil royalties from naval reserve lands. Lands which were withdrawn for naval of reserves in some instances have been leased, and there are revenues from those leases coming to the Federal Treasury. They are exactly of the same type of leases as those which were made on the other public lands, in which the reclamation fund participates to the extend of 525 percent. Additional revenue for the reclamation fund could be obtained if Congress should see fit to give us 521⁄2 percent of the lease revenues from the naval oil reserves. Mr. RICH. If they gave you that permission, at the rate the people want to take the oil from the naval reserve lands, how long would that be able to finance you? Mr. PAGE. The increment would not be very great, because thereis not a great deal of leasing of naval reserve lands. Mr. RICH. This has all been a revelation to me, and what I am now trying to get at is to find out what you are going to do with these reclamation projects after the next 2 or 3 years, because you have spent all your money from public lands-you will have no money coming in from that source, and you are on the wane and will soon be out of revenues from oil leases, but the income from your mineral leases might increase a little for the time being, with the high price of some of the metals. Aside from that, the only source that you are going to get revenues from for your development is out of the Federal Treasury. Mr. PAGE. That, and the returns from the investment in the projects already in existence. Mr. RICH. Then the amounts which the Federal Treasury have allocated, and what they might allocate in the future for these public works, will be used as a revolving fund until they are used up? Mr. PAGE. That is what we hope can be accomplished. At the present time the money from emergency fund projects would not go n to the revolving fund, would not be available for reappropriation. Mr. RICH. I want the members of the committee to get this point, that the money that we put into these projects will then be used for a revolving fund, and when they are gone you will have to find some other source of supply. EXPENDITURES MADE ON PROJECTS IN CAPITAL INVESTMENT Mr. LEAVY. The difficulty with your statement is that it is not based upon a premises upported by facts. Each of these projects, when once developed, becomes an asset in itself, and in return pays annually to the Federal Treasury the cost of its creation, in addition to other costs that have been invested in it. It is not a case of building a bridge, or a sewer, or a monument, and of that money being gone, but it is a case of developing something which becomes a source of income. Mr. RICH. What are you talking about? Mr. LEAVY. Reclamation projects. Mr. RICH. Are you talking about power projects, or projects that are used for the development of additional farm lands? Mr. LEAVY. I am speaking of the whole program, but I am willing even to confine that statement to land development by itself. The record as made the other day, and as shown here, is that those projects that are now completely developed projects have paid back to the extent of in excess of 99 percent of the cost of their development. Mr. PAGE. Not of the cost, but of the amounts due. Mr. LEAVY. I mean that, of the current sum due. They are not behind in their payments. Mr. RICH. I am not trying in any way to discourage reclamationI think it is wise to do it but if I get the picture correctly, I see where you are going to have a most difficult time in future years in continuing that program if you continually go down into the Federal Treasury to get the funds that are going to be necessary to operate them. We have developed that in this respect to the point where now there is no more land, your oil and mineral resources are going to be almost to the vanishing point, and unless you can develop something else, the only revenues that you will receive will be from the projects that you are developing and I think you are interested now, probably, in Grand Coulee? Mr. LEAVY. I am interested in that particularly, but generally in the entire western development of lands, minerals, and forests, but the thought that you seem to have, and that I trust in some manner we can change your opinion on, is the fact that this whole development is only a drain on the Federal Treasury, whereas it is a medium of producing new national wealth that ultimately returns to the Federal Treasury. Every dollar that has gone out will be returned, assuming always that the project is a feasible one when approved. Mr. RICH. If you can show me those figures as you go along, I will be the greatest pleased man on the committee, because I am just trying to be convinced that these things are practicable and logical. When you do that, you will find that I will be in favor of every one of them, but if you cannot do that, then you will find that I am interested in trying to do the thing that is for the best interests of this country. |