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Mr. HAVELL. On original homestead work; yes.
Mr. O'NEAL. That is progressively less from year to year.

Mr. HAVELL. If you consider the normal work the homesteads and the desert entries, but that is a small part of the work of the office.

LEGAL ADVISOR TO THE COMMISSIONER Mr. O'NEAL. How many attorneys do you have employed under this appropriation-lawyers, law examiners, people of that sort?

Mr. HAVELL. The attorneys in our office were transferred to the Solicitor's office, when all of the attorneys in the Department were brought under the Solicitor.

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Let me interrupt to say this, that on page 44 of the bill covering the Land Office appropriation, there is an item covering an assistant solicitor at $5,600, another covering a legal adviso: to the Commissioner at $5,000; and Mr. Kirgis, who represented the Solicitor's Office bere, stated that those men were not under the direction of the Solicitor. He stated-and I think that you will find it as a matter of record—that those men were on special work under the Land Office, requested and desired by the Land Office, and were in no way under the Solicitor's Office.

That is something that I intend to have cleared up. Mr. HAVELL. I would like to make this statement, either on or off of the record

Mr. ScrUGHAM. Let us get it on the record.

Mr. HAVELL. The legal advisor to the Commissioner is, in fact. the acting assistant commissioner of the General Land Office. His title is as it is stated here in the justification, but his duties are really those of an administrative or executive officer.

Mr. O'NEAL. That is the assistant solicitor? Mr. HAVELL. No. That is Mr. D. K. Parrott, the Acting Assistant Commissioner, who acts in the absence of the Assistant Commissioner He is the signing officer. His title is, as I have stated, legal advisor to the Commissioner--that is his payroll title, but his duties 90 percent of his time are in signing of important decisions

Mr. SCRUGHAM. Is the Solicitor of the Interior Department, whose budget is carried under a separate item entirely, the legal advisor to the Commissioner, or is this man referred to here on page 44, in grade 5, the legal advisor to the Commissioner?

Mr. HAVELL. The legal advisor to the Commissioner is the acting assistant commissioner of the General Land Office, and has been so to my knowledge for over 20 years.


Mr. Scrugham. Who is the assistant solicitor carried under grade 6 just above that point on page 44 of the bill?

Mr. HAVELL. That is the gentleman who handles our potash work Mr. SCRUGHAM. Is he carried as an assistant solicitor? Mr. HAVELL. His pay roll title is assistant solicitor, but he is the expert on potash.



Mr. SCRUGHAM. There are a great many law examiners, assistant law examiners, and so on.

Mr. HAVELL. They are not solicitors. They are adjudicating clerks, that adjudicate land cases. They are not lawyers in the sense that the Solicitor's Office employes them.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Are they lawyers?
Mr. HAVELL. Oh, yes; a great many of them are lawyers.
Mr. FITZPATRICK. That is what we are trying to bring out.

Mr. HAVELL. For instance, Mr. Congressman, I am down here as a technical advisor to the Commissioner. I am an engineer, having been in the surveying service for years, and I am also a lawyer.

Mr. O'NEAL. Are there any men in your department, and who are being paid from your authorization, that are doing the work of the Solicitor's Office?

Mr. HavELL. None.

Mr. O'NEAL. There is not a man listed here, and being paid from your appropriation, that is actually in the Solicitor's Office?

Mr. HAVELL. None at all. The reverse of that is true. We have people in our office handling work for us who are paid from the Solicitor's roll.

Mr. O'NEAL. How many of those have you?
Mr. HAVELL. Nine.
Mr. O'NEAL. They do not appear, then, in your estimate?
Mr. HAVELL. They do not appear there.

Mr. O'NEAL. And you have nine that are paid out of the appropriation for the Solicitor's Office doing work in your office?

Mr. HAVELL. Yes, sir; on the legal work, but there is no one paid out of our money that is doing work for the Solicitor.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. Did you say that those law examiners are lawyers?

Mr. HAVELL. Yes.
Mr. FITZPATRICK. Are they civil-service people?
Mr. HAVELL. Yes.
Mr. FITZPATRICK. Do you get them from the civil-service list?
Mr. HAVELL. Yes.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. It is requested that a law examiner should be a lawyer?

Mr. HAVELL. I would like to make this explanation, these nine people working in our office and paid from the Solicitor's roll, are under the jurisdiction of the Solicitor, although they work in our office.

Mr. O'NEAL. Are they doing strictly the work of your office?
Mr. HavELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. Scrutham. Let me take a specific instance. A Mr. Barash appeared at a hearing in which I was interested some weeks ago, representing the General Land Office. Is he carried on the Solicitor's roll, and paid under the appropriation for the Solicitor's office, or is he paid from the Land Office appropriation?

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Mr. HAVELL. He is carried on the Solicitor's appropriation, and not on the General Land Office appropriation, although he works in the General Land Office on legal work.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. He is one of the nine?
Mr. HAVELL. Yes.


Mr. FitzPATRICK. Referring to these 14 law examiners, what do they do?

Mr. HAVELL. They are really adjudicating clerks.
Mr. FITZPATRICK. Are they lawyers?

Mr. HAVELL. Yes, they are either lawyers or have met the requirements of the Civil Service to do that work.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. It is not necessary, then, for them to be lawyers? Is that correct?

Mr. HAVELL. I would not be surprised but what some of them have shown, by long years of experience, a proficiency that meets the civilservice requirements, although they perhaps may not have a degree in law, but there are not many of them in that situation, if any. But I would not want to make a sweeping statement that they are all lawyers. I know that in the past we have had a case of two where we had to justify an assignment of an employee to one of those positions when he did not have the legal status of an LL. B.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. But you take them off of the civil-service list?

Mr. HAVELL. Yes, they are all civil-service employees. Some of them are employees who have worked in the office for years and who attended law school and graduated and were admitted to the bar, and then we advanced them to the legal work, the adjudicating work.


Mr. SCRIGHAM. Coming next to page 45, there is the item of general expenses, which reads as follows:

For traveling expenses of officers and employees, including employment of stenographers and other assistants when necessary; for separate maps of publicland States and Alaska, including maps showing areas designated by the Secretary of the Interior under the enlarged homestead Acts, prepared by the General Land Office; for the reproduction by photolithography or otherwise of official plats of survevs; for expenses of restoration to the public domain of lands in forest reserves and of lands temporarily withdrawn for forest-reserve purposex; and for expenses of hearings or other proceedings held by order of the General Land Office to determine the character of lands, whether alleged fraudulent entries are of that character or have been made in compliance with the law, and of hearings in disbarment proceedings, $13,00).

Mr. HAVELL. The justification which we have submitted in support of this appropriation is as follows:

For travel expenses, $2,000 This amount is necessary to enable the Commis. sioner and Assistant Commissjoner to make periodical visits to field offices for the purpose of contact and coordination, and to cover the travel expenses of employees detailed to spet field offices and activities of the public-land service and to investigate caN** of official misconduct.

For printing maps and plats, $4,300. This amount provides for publishing one State map and reproducing orginal plats of public land surveys. Plats are reproduced by lithographs, the necessary ofhcial file copies being reproduced at the same time as the copies for sale. In this way the Government gets its file copes at little or no additional cost, as receipts from sales of plats approximate the entire cost of lithographing.

For advertising, $300. This covers the cost of publishing notices in connec* = mtb grazing districts and of advertising restorations of lands in forest

Expenses of bearings, $7,700. This provides for payment of fees and mileage Government witnesses and of the Government's share of the cost of taking

tuns in hearings in controverted land cases, where the character of the sd, alleged fraud, or failure to comply with requirements of law is the issue.

burlas books, $500. This amount is needed to purchase necessary law books .. curent nature, as provided by law.

e 193S estimate of $15,000 is $1,000 less than the appropriation of $16,000 ' • tbe 1937 fiscal year. Mr SCRIGHAM. I note that you had an appropriation of $16,000 for

7, and that your estimate for 1938 is $15,000 for travel expenses of Ecers and employees. Do you have $1,000 less traveling to do at this ane than you had in the preceding year? Mr. HAVELL. No; but the answer is that we feel that that will meet - requirements so far as our general expenses are concerned.

SURVEYING PUBLIC LAND Mr SCRUGHAM. Under the heading of "Surveying public land,”

ad on page 47 of the bill, is the itemPrvering public lands: For surveys and resurveys of public lands, examination

re heretofore made and reported to be defective or fraudulent, inspecting ! mal deposits, coal fields, and timber districts, making fragmentary surveys,

web other surveys or examinations as may be required for identification of 1-2 feep purposes of evidence in any suit or proceeding in behalf of the United 'He, nder the supervision of the Commissioner of the General Land Office and

rn of the Secretary of the Interior, $650,000, including not to exceed $5,000 • purchase, exchange, operation, and maintenance of motor-propelled

- Ert-carrying vehicles: Prorided, That not to exceed $5,000 of this appro*' .. ray be expended for salaries of employees of the field surveying service

early detailed to the General Land Office; Provided further, That not to * $10,000 of this appropriation may be used for the survey, classification, .: ele of the lands and timber of the so-called Oregon and California Railroad Es and the Coos Bay Wagon Road lands: Provided further, That this appropri

: may be expended for surveys made under the supervision of the Commisas the General Land Office, but when expended for surveys that would not

or the chargeable hereto it shall be reimbursed from the applicable appro**. fund, or special deposit.

I HAVELL. The justification which we have prepared in support De item is as follows:

JUSTIFICATION OF ESTIMATE imate of $650,000 for the fiscal year 1938 contemplates the execution se bore urgent cadastral engineering projects now authorized by Congress • Department, in the United States proper and Alaska, and of prospective - a resonably certain of authorization prior to and during that year.

:. be detailed estimates to follow, due allowance is made for the current 'sir program and for the substantial volume of work to be completed this - Tor under a Public Works allotment of $750,000 made available July 18,

* June 30, 1937, and for such reimbursable activities under the general "Teration as are being undertaken for other Federal agencies to meet the

neessities of land use and policy. Doar objectives of cadastral survey expansion remain unchanged. They

Taylor Act grazing districts in Western States and (2) Federal reserveE l parts of the Nation. This broad grouping of land resources from * dpoint of major survey significance is coincident with the changed policy ard by the tentative withdrawals of all public lands for purposes of classi

et prror to placing 142,000,000 acres in grazing districts under the Taylor V Tue result is a shifting in varying degree of survey purpose and production the several established survey classifications.

ample, cadastral surveys made primarily for agricultural disposal are - HT Decessary on any considerable scale. The vast withdrawals and the

depleted character of the remaining public lands have reduced improvident home steading to a minimum. And yet prior settlement claims, the potential rights of the States, the need for safeguarding the interests of established farmer stockmen, and other owners, and the administration of certain acquisition lau: in the virgin territory of Alaska will require the survey of lands broadly classr as agricultural in moderate degree for many years.

But the decline in surveys for disposal is far more than offset by the manifcl requirements of survey on the immense Taylor Act domain in Western States The necessities of administration and economic classification of all such lands, th: exchange provision of the act, the amendment approved June 26, 1936, enlarge the areas of grazing districts and opening such lands to entry upon proper class cation under applicable public land laws and the Executive order of May 6, 198 providing for the acquisition of isolated tracts under section 14, all require locatie and description in terms of the cadastral survey of the General Land Office.

A tremendous area in the aggregate of the Taylor Act domain is unsurveyed Also, a considerable part is covered by the older surveys which have deteriorate. many of them beyond recovery except by official resurvey. It is therefore evident that notwithstanding the considerable amount of work that will be accomplishe this fiscal year in all sections of the country under the regular appropriation, and Taylor Act and other lands under the $750,000 Public Works allotment, a sorban stantial program of surveys in grazing districts will be necessary next year and fi: some years thereafter.

The second major survey objective, the vast area within the national reserva tions, including the forests, national parks, and monuments, reclamation, Su Conservation, and Resettlement areas, and other permanent withdrawals in mar. parts of the United States proper and Alaska, also requires full and prompt atka. tion. Departmental authorizations already made and those pending for surrers and resurveys in this group indicate an unusually heavy schedule for next vear t further the plans of other Federal agencies engaged in administering specific pro grams on the public lands.

Of continuing importance, but of limited extent in recent years are cadasts. surveys originating in laws designated to conserve economic and human resources and to protect the rights of individuals and the States to public lands unde certain conditions. In contrast, surveys to facilitate the operation of the Miners Leasing Act of 1920, under which nonmetalliferous minerals are held in Federi ownership under a percentage of minerals mined, are in demand in all mineralizi areas of the public domain.

But among the more prolific sources of modern cadastral work are the Resurvey Acts of 1909 and 1918, which provide for the recovery of obliterated origirs public-land surveys under a proper showing as to the necessity therefor. The work of legally restoring lost and steadily deteriorating corner monuments of the faulty and sometimes fictitious surveys of a half century ago and more, in te interests of orderly administration, land planning and use becomes more pressit: and difficult of accomplishment with the passing years. Resurveys should kept abreast of the administrative requirements of the Federal land laws and a the development programs of governmental agencies not only as a convenient in area identification and description, but as a basic economic necessity in the systematic development and conservation of the public lands.

The requirements of cadastral work in 1938 will be on a broader scale tis theretofore, and perhaps will justify the adoption of new methods of procedux It can be said with assurance that no survey situation in recent times has offer: a more logical and economically attractive opportunity for the creation of a co tinuing work program over a series of years than that of the present. A well er sidered, comprehensive plan of cadastral survey and resurvey expansion unders taken in conjunction with the regular work of the Cadastral Engineering Ser: would not only be entirely feasible and desirable from an engineering point view, but would furnish the necessary legal foundations for the conservation land resources without the inevitable delays incident to limited funds subject many calls. At the same time, the normal annual appropriation would be free to promptly ireet specific requirements of survey and resurvey on the put: lands as authorized by Congress and the Department.

The established survey classifications are as follows:
I. Original survers.

(al Agricultural.
(0) Jonagricultural and mineral.
rol Cooperative.

(0) Miscellaneoris.
II. Resurvers.
III. Office.

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